Trader’s Narrative

553 Responses to “List of Proprietary Trading Firms”  

1. 1 Jamie Apr 4th, 2007 at 8:56 pm

   Thanks for putting such a comprehensive list together. What is series 7 btw?

2. 2 Babak Apr 4th, 2007 at 9:17 pm

   It’s a US thing, sort of like our CSC but a bit tougher. You need to have it before you can trade prop - or atleast be sponsored by the firm to write the series 7 license exam

3. 3 Jim Apr 4th, 2007 at 10:56 pm

   Check link for Wolverine trading. Should be www.wolve.com.

4. 4 Babak Apr 5th, 2007 at 12:11 am

   Thanks Jim - fixed.

5. 5 Tyro Apr 5th, 2007 at 8:56 am

   Canadian firms don’t require Canadian traders to have their Series 7. US firms do require Canadian traders have their Series 7. So when I (a Canadian) traded with Bright (American, but with Canadian offices), I had to get my Series 7. When I traded with Questrade and Swift, they didn’t care.

6. 6 Rahul Apr 5th, 2007 at 10:50 pm

   Thanks for the list Babak. I have been looking for one but kept getting unsatisfactory results. This was quite welcome.

   Thanks,
   Rahul
   http://www.tradernirvana.com

7. 7 Babak Apr 7th, 2007 at 12:45 am

   you’re welcome Rahul, thanks for stopping by

8. 8 Dirk Apr 9th, 2007 at 2:43 pm

   A Series 7 is not needed in Canada? That’s cool! How can I get in? Would I have to become a Canadian citizen? How easy/hard is that?

9. 9 John Croford Apr 11th, 2007 at 2:41 pm

   Finding an equity trading that fits you is hard. But if you are looking for the training, Nexis Capital is by far the best on the street. A few groups on the above list are actually subcompanies of Nexis. They own their trading platform and the broker dealer so their rates are the most competitive. If you are new Nexis is the way to go!

10. 10 Caravaggio Apr 15th, 2007 at 2:08 pm

    Good list Babak. Some of these firms have UK offices, so it’s something for me to look in to. There is also MAKO trading (www.makoglobal.com) …they are primarily derivatives traders but look like a solid, reputable outfit. I summarised what they are looking for on my blog:

    http://the3500.wordpress.com/2007/04/13/what-a-proprietary-trading-firm-looks-for/

11. 11 John Hall Apr 16th, 2007 at 1:40 am

    I think this is really interesting and I plan on using it in future job hunts.

    I’m wondering if there is something particular that can make you stand out in a sea of applicants. I don’t have a Series 7 yet and my firm isn’t part of the NASD so they obviously can’t sponsor me. Is it easy to get one of these firms to sponsor you?

12. 12 John Apr 16th, 2007 at 8:26 pm

    I was wondering if anyone knows which trading floor is shown in the picture! It looks like an amazing place to work!

13. 13 Babak Apr 16th, 2007 at 8:33 pm

    John,
    it’s my home office.

14. 14 John Apr 16th, 2007 at 10:34 pm

    I was wondering if anyone knows the average performance of first year proprietary traders in these trading firms. I hear Nexis Capital has a low turnover rate and was wondering how much the traders are making on average. (or range) Are there any websites with these statistics? Thanks.

15. 15 Babak Apr 17th, 2007 at 4:24 pm

    John,
    it is such a secretive and fragmented mkt that it is simply impossible to get such data. The best you can do is ask around and read objective reviews from people who have “been there and done that”.

16. 16 Gil Apr 22nd, 2007 at 12:47 am

    Nexis (and associated subs working on same trading floor, StarAlliance & Semper Fi) uses Blackwood. It is not their own. Nothing special about them either.

17. 17 Ian Apr 22nd, 2007 at 5:09 am

    Please Help …

    I am debating whether or not to accept a job offer from Nexis Capital. If anyone has any information on Nexis Capital or just in general about the roles of an equity trader, it would be much appreciated.

    Thanks

18. 18 Babak Apr 22nd, 2007 at 8:16 pm

    Ian,
    I would suggest you go to elitetrader.com, write up your offer and request feedback.

19. 19 Ike Apr 26th, 2007 at 1:16 am

    I also got a job offer from nexis as an equity trader and I’m confused as to what exactly I’m getting into …am I basically being let on my own and working under a commission..? Please give me any further info if you can..
    Thanks

20. 20 John Apr 26th, 2007 at 7:16 am

    Hey Ike and Ian. Looks like we are all in the same boat. Are you guys in the class starting in Aug? Maybe we are future coworkers lol but yea if anyone knows anything about Nexis and its culture please let us know!

21. 21 Jerry Apr 26th, 2007 at 5:03 pm

    I’ve been looking up this Nexis Capital and have seen their postings on career websites. To those who had an interview with them and/or got offers, can you give any specifics? What’s your outlook on them? Legit?

22. 22 Babak Apr 26th, 2007 at 5:49 pm

    Guys,
    I’ve posted a thread on ET. Hopefully, somone with info on Nexis will chip in.

23. 23 John S. Apr 27th, 2007 at 6:04 pm

    Im not in Nexis, but I trade on the same floor as them. They work under Dimension Brokerage. I *think* Nexis use to be called Prestige Capital.

    I remember that back in January, they had a sudden infux of new traders. Now, it looks like they only have half the traders that they did at their peak in January. Someone (also not in Nexis) told me that a few of Nexis’s sub-LCC’s left for another company. I’m not sure if that’s true or not because it looked to me as if the traders left gradually.

    John Croford:
    Are you saying that Nexis owns blackwood pro, and dimension? I generally dont like getting in the affairs of others but i’m rather curious about this.

    Ike:
    Ian:
    John:
    Can I ask about you rates, capital contribution, payout, etc?

    j_s_summers@yahoo.com

24. 24 Ian Apr 27th, 2007 at 9:27 pm

    I accepted the offer from Nexis Capital. The capital provided by them is 50K and I decided to contribute 10% of that as my initial contribution. I believe this means my returns on trades will be 70%. This will still make it very difficult for those first three months when you generate no income.

    However I have requested the recruiter to send me the contract for this position and he refuses due to “confidentiality”reasons. I know other companies make sure that new employees are clear on all litigations of the position and the contract is one of the first things they mail out.

    What do you guys feel about this, I really want to review the contract before starting. How should I go about this.

    Thanks.

25. 25 John Hall Apr 27th, 2007 at 9:58 pm

    I can understand why he wouldn’t want you to share the contract with anyone else (except a lawyer), but I wouldn’t agree to using someone else’s capital without a clear understanding of the risks and potential liabilities. Even if he only lets you look at it at their headquarters (very much a scare tactic), I would spend a great deal of time looking it over and making sure you understand it.

26. 26 Babak Apr 28th, 2007 at 4:35 pm

    Ian,
    personally, I wouldn’t get into anything unless I knew what it was beforehand. If they are citing confidentiality then tell them that you’re willing to sign a non-disclosure agreement to be ablel to read the contract. I can’t see them refusing that in good conscience.

    best of luck and let us know how it works out

27. 27 Weston May 15th, 2007 at 12:15 am

    Has anyone ever heard of or worked for Title Trading? Any feedback would be greatly appreciated

28. 28 robbie May 17th, 2007 at 7:58 pm

    I am looking for a good spot to trade that doesnt require a series 7. Any thoughts on some places I should look into?

29. 29 Keith May 18th, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    I also got an offer from Nexis to start in August. I’ve been debating it. A 60% payout seems pretty decent, but I’m skeptical since I didn’t receive a contract or very much info on the company and the position.

30. 30 trade2learn May 22nd, 2007 at 6:55 am

    Nexis is just like any prop firm. If you can trade, great. If not, you would feel like crap after couple of months.

    Their checks come in on time- if you manage to make money that is.

    From my experience there, the success rate is about 5-10%. There’s about 2-3 good traders born out of a class of 20-25.

31. 31 Will May 27th, 2007 at 12:29 am

    Thanks for the wonderful list!

32. 32 pame May 28th, 2007 at 8:04 pm

    Hi, I need to know more about Cornerstone Partners. Who is the Partner in this company and is the properitory company anyway related to Cornerstone Trading LLC ! Appreciate reply if anyone knows !

33. 33 Charlie Jun 1st, 2007 at 1:50 am

    what is the firm that’s in the picture?

34. 34 Ian Jun 1st, 2007 at 3:24 am

    Has anyone taken the series 7 exam or know someone who has taken it, if so can you give me some insight as to best ways to prepare.

    Thanks

35. 35 Babak Jun 1st, 2007 at 6:49 pm

    Charlie,
    I have no idea but it looks like a fun place to work, doesn’t it?
    you wouldn’t believe the number of people who have contacted me asking the same question.

36. 36 John Croford Jun 5th, 2007 at 7:23 pm

    Haven’t checked the post in awhile and it seems like the Nexis comment was misunderstood. i have been to a number of different trading firms like nexis and their deal structure, training, support, technology, and management far exceeds the former firms i worked for. i refuse to mention the names of my former firms, but i will tell you that many companies give you no training and fuck you on the deals. the market is really tough right now and has been for about 8 months. Nexis gave me an opportunity because I showed ambition and passion for the markets and it has worked out well. Their payouts may be less than other companies, but the fees and costs to trade are also lower. One former company gave me a much higher payout, like 95%, but charged me a seat fee, and technology fee, and pass through fees, and SEC fees, and ticket costs. It was a crock of shit. Even when I made money gross, i never brought anything home because it was all goign back to the firm. At Nexis they focus on training you and making money with you. Their management is very open about everything and they do not lie about what to expect. Most traders don’t make any money when they start and it is competitive. the bottom line is that you have to be good in this business or you are done.

37. 37 Lyn Jun 6th, 2007 at 12:48 pm

    Hi, thanks a lot for the comprehensive list.

    I am very interested in remote trading and wonder whether it is possible to have more information in this area. So far Bright Trading is the only place I can find which offers such remote trading. Are there other options? I wish to trade index futures, and Bright Trading seems to do stocks only.

    And, can anyone please share their experiences with Bright Trading? Your comment will be very much appreciated. Thanks a lot in advance.

38. 38 John Hall Jun 6th, 2007 at 12:59 pm

    How much of these Proprietary Trading Firms focus on day trading?

39. 39 Babak Jun 6th, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    John, thanks for the feedback.

    Lyn, almost all of the firms now offer remote. That I know only a handful specialize in futures but their names escape me now. I’d go to elitetrader and do a search since this has been asked and answered many times.

    John, by their nature, all prop firms are day trading.

40. 40 Chester Jun 8th, 2007 at 4:00 pm

    When a firm says that after so many months you will receive a draw for perhaps $2000 a months from your account, what exactly is that implying? Basically I’m wondering if you have your account at perhaps $100,000 and in one month you increase it to $105,000. If you have a 100% payout ratio (for math’s sake) and you’re entitled to receiving $7000, does the account move down to $93,000? I’m just trying to familiarize myself with the idea of a draw and its drawbacks(pun intended).

41. 41 Babak Jun 9th, 2007 at 9:53 pm

    I’m not sure because I don’t know the contractual context. In a normal prop shop, you put some money down and you trade. Usually you can take money out, as long as you have made it. Or if you want to leave the firm (taking the deposit). If you have questions, the best source would be the prop firm you’re dealing with.

42. 42 Cory H Jun 18th, 2007 at 4:22 pm

    Those that are interested in remote trading and don’t actually have the experience and want to also learn some stratagies, I found a great company called NRT that gives you online training and allows you to trade from home. I think the company is a subsidiary of Nexis, the website is www.nexisremote.com.

43. 43 Chester Jun 20th, 2007 at 10:12 am

    Do you trade for them now?

44. 44 Lyn Jun 20th, 2007 at 12:11 pm

    Can anyone please tell me the prop firms that trade futures? I am trying to find such info at ET, and so far have found very little. Thanks a lot.

45. 45 Dan Jun 21st, 2007 at 7:51 pm

    Does anyone know of any Washington DC based prop firms?

46. 46 goindo Jun 27th, 2007 at 9:17 am

    To: Ian, Ike & John

    CC: Babak

    Regarding Nexis Capital…

    Hi there; I will be interviewing with Nexis Capital next week, and since you guys (Ian, Ike, John) have already gotten a job offer from them, I’d like to ask you guys (if you don’t mind) about the interview. i.e. what should I expect, what do they look for in me, etc. Or even what questions should I be asking them.

    Of course, my question goes to Babak as well. And.. actually, just about anyone who reads this, please help me out. Thanks!

    P.S. About me: a recent college grad.

47. 47 Keith Jun 27th, 2007 at 6:09 pm

    Goindo,

    I have also accepted an offer from Nexis. Honestly just show that you have a general interest in trading and are fairly decent with numbers. I just graduated college in May and had my interview in January. I didn’t really talk as much about previous work experience as much as I talked about what I knew about the financial market and why that type of job interested me. I don’t know how many people they’ve already hired or how many more they’re hiring, but showing that you really want it is my best advice.

    I’m actually curious who of you guys out there are definetly starting August 6th?

48. 48 Ian Jun 27th, 2007 at 7:00 pm

    Goindo,

    My interview was rather casual, my interviewer was there in a polo, jeans and baseball cap. During the interview he asked me questions which mainly showed my style of thinking and processing data. He also asked me a brain teaser and wanted me to walk him through the solution out loud. One advice is to display an entreprenurial spirit, as that is what this position demands.

    Not to deter anyone from the company, but the risks of the positions were just too great for me and I withdrew my acceptance to join Nexis in August.

    Best of luck.

    Ian

49. 49 Dean Jun 29th, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    Just to clear up a few things about Nexis Capital, as many of the posts here are misleading (I work in the same office as they do).

    A) They do NOT own their own software
    B) They are NOT a broker-dealer
    C) They ARE a sub-LLC group of Dimension Capital
    D) They ARE in the process of leaving Dimension Capital
    E) Half of their traders have left in the past few months

    There is truly nothing special or ground-breaking about their strategy/training (actually, the reason that so many of their traders have left is because of NSYE Hybrid, a new rule that has made many traders leave the business in recent month’s altogether). To their credit, they just do a better job of marketing themselves than other people.

    To the unitiated poster who foolishly stated that he/she will receive $50,000 in capital and $5k of that will be contributed by the trader, lol, don’t think they are giving you a special deal because of your intellect: IT IS STANDARD PROCEDURE IN THE PROP WORLD. And by the way, they are not “putting up” the other $50k: once your $5k is lost/done, you will be asked to re-deposit additional risk capital and/or leave.

    Feel free to e-mail me if you have any questions.

    Dean deanfsp@yahoo.com

50. 50 Babak Jun 29th, 2007 at 3:17 pm

    Dean,
    thanks for the info. I was puzzled by all this hand wringing over interviews. Prop firms will take anyone with a pulse (and capital contribution).

51. 51 Dean Jun 29th, 2007 at 4:30 pm

    Babak:

    No problem. All someone really needs in the prop world is someone reputable to deal with and a good system.

52. 52 Keith Jul 1st, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    Any suggestions? And are there any places that might give some sort of a salary?

53. 53 Babak Jul 1st, 2007 at 2:22 pm

    Keith,
    afaik, the only prop shops that give you a salary are large banks and other financial institutions which have trading desks. They offer a salary plus bonuses based on performance. This is the original form of ‘prop’ but today’s prop firms are in essence super-charged brokers.

54. 54 Chester Jul 2nd, 2007 at 9:00 am

    Has anyone heard or worked for First New York Securities LLC? Seems as though you don’t have to put capital down and the traders get a salary.

55. 55 Babak Jul 2nd, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    Chester, I think you have to be a firm member to trade the firm’s capital. And you become a member by capital contribution… unless I’m wrong. In any case I’ve added them to the list.

56. 56 Brian Jul 3rd, 2007 at 10:25 am

    I just found this blog.

    I received my offer to trade at Nexis and have decided to do it, I’ll be in the August 6 class and can’t wait to start.

57. 57 David Jul 3rd, 2007 at 5:37 pm

    Does anyone here know how much Nexis charges for commission?

58. 58 Ian Jul 3rd, 2007 at 6:50 pm

    From what I understood, comission is solely based on your initial contribution
    i.e contribute nothing, comission = 50%
    contribute 5K, comission = 60%
    contribute 10K, comission = 70%

    … and so on

    however I could be wrong, if anyone else has more precise answer please correct me.

    cheers,
    Ian

59. 59 Keith Jul 3rd, 2007 at 6:55 pm

    0 is 50%, 2500 is 60%, 5k is 70% and 10k is 80%

60. 60 David Jul 3rd, 2007 at 7:16 pm

    I wasn’t talking about payout rate, I was talking about how much they charge you per share.

    That said, those payout rates dont seem very competetive. Im pretty sure Benchmarq has a 100% payout with 20:1 leverage. ie: you put up 5K they give you 100K buying power, with 100% payout.

    David
    dewar32392@mypacks.net

61. 61 john Jul 4th, 2007 at 3:16 am

    i wont be able to find the proprietary firm name G H Financials, could you pleaze upload the relevant informations regarding the same

62. 62 Dean Jul 4th, 2007 at 12:46 pm

    That is a total rape of a deal: 80% payout with $10k deposited? You are doing yourself a huge disservice in accepting such an uncompetitive deal. I guess Nexis is good at finding fools.

    Do yourself a favor and shop around. You can contact me if you have any questions.

    Dean

    deanfsp@yahoo.com

63. 63 Markus Jul 5th, 2007 at 2:57 am

    There is a better way than joining a prop firm:

    Go out and work for a while in job which interests you, save a grubstake, join one or more good trading rooms (e.g. www.lbr.com) for education. Then trade small size with a well known broker with decent commission and good technology. Trading is about patience and persistency.

64. 64 John Croford Jul 5th, 2007 at 5:38 pm

    There seems to be a lot confusion going back and forth about Nexis Capital. The biggest problem with blogs and message boards is that very little is true. Competitors can easily find these blogs and post non-sense.
    As I mentioned in my last post, I am a trader a Nexis and I know exactly what the real deal is with this company (the good and the bad).

    Clarification:
    Nexis Capital is a strategic partner with the owners of Blackwood Technologies and Dimension Brokerage. In other words, Nexis is the parent trading firm, not a sub-group of Dimension Brokerage. Nexis is severing their relationship with the partners of Dimension and Blackwood for one reason and one reason only: Blackwood Pro Trading Platform. As a trader with Nexis, I have been frustrated with the quality of this platform and I can’t be happier that the partners of Nexis have decided to move on to bigger and better things. The platform is the only one reason why a few traders have left Nexis, but very few have. What Dean doesn’t know is that Nexis has already transitioned some traders over onto the new system in a new location, and it appears as if the trading floor got cut in half when it did not.

    Nexis is one of the only companies that offer positions with $0 down. If you do put down capital and go through the capital, Nexis will cover you 100% behind your capital. Dean is completely wrong about that!
    Babak seems to be running this blog and he wisely stated “All someone really needs in the prop world is someone reputable to deal with and a good system.” The only thing I think he forgot to add is training. Training is possibly the most important factor for success. A lot of firms don’t give a shit about their traders or training them. To make it in this industry you have to have the best training possible and that is what Nexis does best, hands down.

    Dean also mentioned that putting 10k down with an 80% payout is a rapping. Obviously noone read my last posting on June 5th. I was with another firm prior to being with Nexis and they could have given me a 140% payout, but it didn’t mean shit because I couldn’t make money with a company that doesn’t train.

65. 65 Dean Jul 5th, 2007 at 6:05 pm

    John, I know exactly where Nexis is going and the platform might be one of the issues at hand, but so is a lower rate and higher buying power. There are more forces at work here than just the platform.

    You obviously cannot read and comprehend correctly, so let us try to clarify a few things for you in plain English.

    A) “Nexis Capital is a strategic partner with the owners of Blackwood Technologies and Dimension Brokerage. In other words, Nexis is the parent trading firm, not a sub-group of Dimension Brokerage.” ————–> Every group within Dimension is a strategic partner (there are about a dozen of them). Nexis is not the parent trading firm: THEY ARE a sub-group of Dimension. Don’t think so? If Dimension goes down, so does Nexis and every other group that is affiliated with Dimension (Nexis has capital with Dimension. Nexis gets paid from Dimension). So your capital is bye-bye with Nexis if Dimension goes south.

    B) “Nexis is one of the only companies that offer positions with $0 down. If you do put down capital and go through the capital, Nexis will cover you 100% behind your capital.” —————–> Nexis is not the only one that offers this: go to Craigslist and you will see a ton of ads that offer no money down. Why would firms do this kind gesture and take on such financial risk? Because they can charge ridiculous rates (anywhere from 0.007 to 0.015 a share) and reap high-margin profits. The trader is led to believe he/she is getting a great deal, however, with such a high commission rate, 99% will not make a dime and just churn themselves, making the firm a ton of cash.

    C) “Babak seems to be running this blog and he wisely stated “All someone really needs in the prop world is someone reputable to deal with and a good system.” ———–> Check your sources: I was the one that wrote that post.

    Bottom line: what Nexis offers is standard fare in the prop world but people like yourself make it to be the steal of the century, making unsuspecting future traders delicious prey.

    Dean

66. 66 David Jul 5th, 2007 at 6:52 pm

    John Croford:
    Since none of Nexis recruits here seems to know this, how much do you charge per share?

67. 67 Chester Jul 6th, 2007 at 1:04 am

    Any remote prop firms that cater to Canadians, where a trader can start with 0 capital?

68. 68 Mark Jul 7th, 2007 at 12:38 am

    John Croford:
    Since none of Nexis recruits here seems to know this, how much do you charge per share?

69. 69 Keith Jul 9th, 2007 at 6:34 pm

    Any input on SMB Capital?

70. 70 Alfi Jul 10th, 2007 at 3:03 am

    hi guys
    do any of you have experience with prop. trading firms in the San Francisco Bay Area?
    Especially if you know of any that provide classes with proper training for their trainees?

    Thanks

71. 71 G.A. Jul 30th, 2007 at 8:34 pm

    John Croford:

    Im interested in trading with NExis, but currently I am trading with another one of dimensions llc’s. I know that there is a non-compete that prevents me from going to nexis right now, but i was wondering if you know when Nexis will begin hiring at there new offices.

72. 72 Ben Aug 6th, 2007 at 1:23 am

    There’s a lot of fake info about nexxis in this blog. Let me break it down real simple for evryone that is about to fall into this scam:

    Out of 200 traders, there will be about 5 guys that can make decent money. Whatever payout % rate you have because of your contribution makes absolutely no difference at all because you’ll never really get paid…for 95% of the traders, the best scenario is to get draws of 2000 against their accounts…and it is rare that they receive 2000 every month…I would say your lucky if you make $8k the first year. It doesn’t matter if your payout is 80%, or 70% or 50%, because the rates they charge you are so high that you will owe them money even if you made money gross. You can gross 10k per month and they will tell you that you lost them money because of the transaction fees…before you know it you will owe them 40k!! They will not charge you this money if you leave…this is just an excuse so they can take all the money you make and NOT pay you!! You will spend years trying to make back the money before you can get your account back to zero and start making money. Oh, and say goodbye to your capital contribution because you’ll NEVER see it again. I put 2500 down and never saw it again, just like the other 16 guys that put down money when they started with me. Don’t waste your time…if you still want to do this, then start with zero contribution…you’ll have the same payout anyway!!! The last thing is that almost evryone leaves or gets fired.

73. 73 David Legg Aug 8th, 2007 at 8:12 am

    Most of the people that goes to those prop firms are trying to make a quick buck. By Day Trading or short term swing trading. Most of the traders that trade at those firms “aren’t” exactly quailified traders aka they wouldn’t get a job at Morgan Stanley or JP Morgan for Equity Trader position or Analyst.

    If trading at one of these firms, for starting off use strategies such as CAPM, biggest thing is control risk to return. (Play it safe) And if you just trade without a valuation system. Then use strategies such as 2% cut loss with Puts as insurance and so forth.

74. 74 Alfi Aug 9th, 2007 at 2:43 am

    I agree….do NOT put down any capital or initial contribution!!!! because you wont see it again! you cant expect to make any money at the beginning anyway as its normal to lose money in the 1st year or so. and lower payout with no contribution? well i wouldnt worry about it because there wont be any payout anyway if you are losing money. If you join them with no money contribution, all you have to lose is your time which is still better than losing time AND your money. )

75. 75 Ben Aug 9th, 2007 at 11:02 pm

    If you have an education, I would stay away from these day trading firms…truth is, you might learn some exciting things but you will not get any money out of it and you will waste valuable time. If you are trying t be an analyst, or a real trader, this experience will not be very useful at all. As I said before, if you want to give it a try, then start with NO MONEY AT ALL!!! Trust me, I saw many new classes start at nexxisss and 95% of the guys were gone after a while….even the guys that were doing really well at the beginning. After all this time, I am pretty amazed that this business, and/or the things that the owners do are legal at all!! They finance their business by screwing so many people…mostly young guys. Every 3 to 6 months, they will bring a class of 20 - 40 people, and tell them the same fake story so that most of them put down contributions. Just figure it out…say 70% of the guys make a contribution…multiply and you’ll get a decent amount of money that none of the guys will see again!!! And if someone is absolutely excellent, he will get paid with his own money. Why do traders stay more than they should you may ask…well, because promises are made and traders try to forecast the future and don’t really care if they don’t make money at the start because they think they’ll make a lot later. Too bad that everyone realizes a little too late that this is not going to happen. I write all this because it is really unfair and sadistic that these people make all this free money like that…making people put down contributions that they will never give back…Ridiculous!!! If you know people that want to start there, spread the word or at least warn them. Trust me, I saw more than 100 guys get kicked out like dogs with no money…and a lot of them were doing good and making money for the firm!!!! I wasted alot of time and lost 2500…lucky it was only 2500 compared to others…and I was a pretty consistent trader with very little loses…it doesn’t matter if you gross alot in your account, because you will always owe them money…try getting charged $10 per thousand shares when they don’t pay anything…of course, they have to pay the rent, but for that they can use the poor kids’ contributions.

76. 76 Gordon Aug 12th, 2007 at 8:38 pm

    Does anyone know of more firms that are similar to Getco and Allston? In particular, what are more firms that use their own software and act more as market-makers versus prop trading firms?

77. 77 digthis Aug 17th, 2007 at 7:40 pm

    worked @ Nexis for almost a year, and what Dean and Ben say is true….Croford is misleading you and himself if his claims are that what Nexis does is superior to anyone else in the Prop arena….I watched daily as seasoned traders would put up 1000-2000 dollar days, only to realize later that these same people had either a) never seen a single dime due to transaction costs and ludicrous per share fees, or b) had run up such ridiculous debt that would require 3 years of 1-2k days just to get to zero….it’s a zero sum game with these guys and most of the ones out there just like them….the only difference is that the owner is as disgusting and shady as they come, and good at fooling those who come into his office that he’s offering you sunshine in a box for nothing. just take a look at his professional career (failed real estate, failed other businesses, etc.)….

78. 78 Chester Sep 4th, 2007 at 2:23 pm

    There hasn’t been any feedback on the new class at Nexis and I know they started already as well as had plans to be merging and moving. Anyone?

79. 79 Alfi Sep 6th, 2007 at 8:03 pm

    yeah it would be interesting to hear about their experiences from the class that started in August.

80. 80 Alfi Sep 18th, 2007 at 12:57 pm

    well most of the people in the current class are probably frustruated with trading and losing money and therefore are not willing to share that with us..i guess..:-))

81. 81 trade2learn Sep 25th, 2007 at 11:11 pm

    I worked for Nexis for over a year. I can’t speak for independent traders that use them as a broker but I can speak as one of the “graduate” of their training class.

    I can verify what Ben and Dean said. I saw traders come and go. Even the good one left after a while.

    To be fair to Nexis, if you are a good trader, you can make money- the fee is roughly $7/1000 shares - thats after all the SEC fees. The success rate is about 1-2 out of a class of 20. Even you are a successful trader, chances are the money isn’t as good as you think it is.

    If you have a decent education, go to an i bank and get an internship. Paid or unpaid, its better than a career at daytrading.

82. 82 kw Sep 27th, 2007 at 1:47 pm

    I have not dealt with Nexis so I will not comment on them, but on prop trading in general. I traded prop for a year before leaving to trade futures and I know several people that are quite successful using prop firms. But there are several misunderstandings that many new traders have, especially when they find out about prop trading from a job posting website.

    First of all, the firms that recruit off monster.com or whatever are NOT true prop in the original sense of the word, i.e. Goldman Sachs/Morgan Stanley etc. Those firms, who generally only recruit ivy league blue blood types will pay salary and bonus, and the competition for those “jobs” is extremely intense. The prop firms we are discussing are not jobs at all, because you are not being hired to trade. Rather, you are risking your own money (when you put up captial) or in the case of no contribution the company is only risking the amount of commissions you will generate against any profits you may make up to whatever their internal cutoff point is where they “fire” you. If they offer a “draw”, that is the same as in a sales job where you are receiving money that you have yet to earn. Any profits you make above commissions will be used to pay off the draw before you get any of it.

    Realize that most people will not make any money trading…ever. Those that do, usually have a learning curve that can last more than a year (in my case it was multiple years…yes, I am stubborn). It is almost impossible to make enough as a new trader to cover commissions and fees, no matter what the training program is like. There are no magic bullets, no secret systems…in the end its all about you and how disciplined you are.

    Prop firms make their money off of traders making trades. To them your profitability is secondary because there is always another dreamer waiting for your chair. They clear trades for less than they charge you for them and the difference is where their income is from. If you happen to make a lot of money and they get 10 or 20% of that, then its just gravy for them…that is why so many offer 100% payout, they know that there is likely to be no payout at all.

    Someone asked why there aren’t many futures prop firms. The reason is that the main benefit of prop trading is the large amount of leverage you get for your small deposit. This allows undersapitalized traders the ability to bypass the daytrader rule and start on a shoestring. Futures are already highly leveraged and so there is not the same benefit to sell to traders. If there were a way to make money doing it then you can count on the fact that they would be all over the place. There are a few and they tend to appeal to very large volume traders, but I have no experience with them.

    This turned out to be longer than I intended but I see these questions come up a lot on various forums and I hate to see unsuspecting people get their dreams shattered because they didn’t realize what they were getting into. I don’t mean this as a slap on prop firms, because they can be a useful tool if you are prepared when you start. The leverage is great if you know what you are doing. The problem is that the leverage usually appeals to people with little money and so they have no staying power to survive the learning curve. My recommendation is to not trade prop (or any highly leveraged trading) until you have enough money put aside to live on for at LEAST a year, not including your trading capital. Otherwise there is zero chance of your survivability. My humble recommendation (from experience) is to get a regular job that you can spend a couple years at and save save save until you have the capital to survive the inevitable drought. I know it sucks to hear that but I wish someone had told me that when I started.

    I have respected Babak for a long time from another forum so I thought I would trrow my 2c in here. Hope it helps someone.

    Good trading everyone.

83. 83 Mike Sep 27th, 2007 at 11:09 pm

    Hello Guys:

    I accepted a job offer with Star Alliance Capital, They are working under Dimension Cap, I am Trading there for almost 3 weeks .After two weeks of Extensive training , i started to trade Live and so far the first week , I made only $ 500.00 Net, after comm.

    My mentors making acouple thousand dollars a day, and so far no matter what i do i cant make more than $ 100 to $ 110.00 a day .I have asked them to let me to trade more shares ( currently i have a limit of 300 share 3 positions) but so far they are not allowing me to trade more.

    Just wondering if you guys have any advide for me to help me to make more money with my current position size.

84. 84 Babak Sep 28th, 2007 at 3:42 pm

    Kirk, thanks for that very honest and informative message.

    Mike, be patient. A week is too short. Keep up a consistent performance, then ask for more flexibility and lower commissions.

85. 85 Mike Sep 28th, 2007 at 8:56 pm

    Babak:

    Thank You so much for your advice, You are right,I have to be paitient and take it easy .

    As one of my mentor told me before, lots of people loose their money and therfore dont have chance to be in the market in order to pass the learning curve.

    Babak , Are you a trader?

86. 86 erik Oct 18th, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    Does any of you guys know a good Prop Firm in Toronto? Thanks

87. 87 HP Nov 9th, 2007 at 10:30 am

    I am looking for a prop firm in Washington DC or the surrounding area of Virgina and Maryland. Can someone let me know. Thanks

88. 88 Piers Nov 12th, 2007 at 6:10 pm

    Hi Guys,

    I’m trading out of a prop arcade in London but looking for a move to Asia. Anyone have any names of prop firms out in Singapore or Tokyo? Have a few names to chase and trying to get infro from SGX and TIFFE, but any contacts/names of fimrs out there would be appreciated… Anyone got any info?

    Cheers

89. 89 Brook Taylor Nov 20th, 2007 at 7:36 pm

    Has anyone paid for training from Velez Capital and or trade through them? What has been your experience? Did you feel the training is worth the price i.e. 7 grand. Are there firms that don’t charge for training? What other firms give you $50k to start trading? Thank you. Brook

90. 90 kw Nov 21st, 2007 at 10:38 am

    Brook,

    $7k for training? You would be better served applying that money to the market losses you will have in the beginning.

    I am not against educating yourself, but something newbies need to know is that this industry is FULL of scam artists, and the way you know they are trying to cheat you is if their mouth is moving. The truth is that to make money in the market you have to have an edge, that is, a statistically significant positive return that beats random coin flipping. If these “educators” had this then they would be trading not teaching, plain and simple. If they tell you otherwise, like “I do it to give back” or “My method is not diluted by teaching it to others” then just remember, their mouth is moving… Edges are too hard to come by to publish and even if they did, the fact that many others would be using the edge would in itself, kill the edge. And I am being generous in assuming they had an edge to sell to begin with…most of these training courses are absolutely worthless crap from the start.

    You will have to develop your own edge, and there are no shortcuts. You have to master your own psychology (this is the step most people never get through) and spend a lot of time in the market. Those are two things you won’t get from a $7k seminar. All you need is in a few books you can get at the library and yourself.

    As for Velez, a good friend of mine had some proprietary work “taken” from him by these guys and then claimed as their own, so that tells me all I need to know about him. But my warning applies to all vendors. There are very very very very very (did I mention very?) few that are worth even reading the promotional brochure.

    Its a jungle out there, and there are a lot of big cats eyeballing you.

91. 91 David Nov 21st, 2007 at 11:33 am

    Question guys -

    i just interviewed at a prop options trading company. they grilled me with logic questions - and quite frankly - i was lost.

    how much do these questions determine how good you will be in trading?

    david

92. 92 Babak Nov 21st, 2007 at 2:29 pm

    Piers, a lot of European and US prop shops have branches in Asia. Try the larger ones in the listing (above). At the moment I don’t know of a reputable firm in Asia but if I hear anything I’ll let you know.

    Brook, I’d stay away from Velez, prop firm or training. I haven’t heard good things.

    David, there is no definite determinant of trading prowess other than a track record. No question, interview or experiment short of trading itself can show that you can make money. Interviews are a game that you have to play to join the game in prop shops. Some are hard and others easy. If you don’t get into one, try another.

93. 93 David Nov 21st, 2007 at 3:44 pm

    Babak -

    in addition to your reply of trading prowess - if one trips up on logic questions in an interview…such as myself(bummer), do you think this is a good indicator whether one will be successful in the industry?

    david

94. 94 Rob Nov 22nd, 2007 at 6:26 pm

    Piers,

    Looking to start in Europe, could you inform me about a firm in London ?

    Thanks.

95. 95 joel goodsen Nov 26th, 2007 at 1:45 pm

    Anyone heard of Maverick Trading out of Cicago ?

    I have a friend who’s college roomate supposedly runs it and is trying to sign me up as aprop trader.

    Just wondering if they are legit.

96. 96 Piers Nov 26th, 2007 at 1:55 pm

    Rob, depends on what you’re looking for I guess. Are you already trading at a prop house out in the States? What products are you looking to trade? Are you looking for graduate traineeships or wanting to back yourself?

    Give me some more info and I can be a bit more specific.

    Cheers

97. 97 Derek Nov 26th, 2007 at 4:03 pm

    Anyone heard of SMW trading? I’m just out of college and interested in learning more about how the trading industry works. I received a call from SMW today and they want to interview me. I honestly have no idea what to expect or the questions I should be asking. Thanks for the help.

    dhktns@excite.com

98. 98 joel goodsen Nov 26th, 2007 at 4:48 pm

    Ok so I WANT to risk my $5-10K to get 20:1 leverage - where do I go to do this without the silly fake “interview” ?

    I am 41 and have been trading since I was 18 - have gained and lost lots of money- I understand the risks, blah, blah, etc.

    I just want the leverage and good market access and software platform and to be left alone to lose my money (or maybe make some ???).

    Oh, and no ridiculous fees….

    So where is the best place ?

    Do I need to go along with their “interview” ?

99. 99 Babak Nov 26th, 2007 at 7:11 pm

    joel,
    re mavrick (aka great point capital) I found this on elitetrader.com

100. 100 joel goodsen Nov 27th, 2007 at 12:58 am

     Thanks Babak-

     Lots of good info at that link but unfortunately lots of testimony on both sides so not conclusive.

     I did find out that they are now called Tower Hill if anyone else is following this thread.

101. 101 Rob Nov 28th, 2007 at 4:40 pm

     Thanks Piers.

     I am trading Nasdaq basket stocks with my automated program and I am looking for a shop with remote access with API for excel and leverage.

102. 102 Steve Nov 29th, 2007 at 2:06 pm

     anybody hear of ptgcapital? and if so, how is it?

103. 103 PADRON Dec 1st, 2007 at 12:00 am

     I am exploring the career as a prop trader after working at morgan stanley because I feel like I would be making more money than I do now if just put my own capital into the market the way i did for my clients. I have 500K to put down as collateral. Someone give me some tips please

104. 104 David Meyerson Dec 1st, 2007 at 3:00 pm

     Babak -

     i cant get a phone # for Jump trading off their website…any way you can find it or recommend a resource guide?

     David

105. 105 Babak Dec 1st, 2007 at 4:26 pm

     David,
     it is your lucky day:
     phone: 312.930.9603 fax: 312.930.9670

106. 106 Babak Dec 1st, 2007 at 4:33 pm

     Padron,
     were you trading at MS or managing client money? short term trading is a different beast altogether. The advantage to prop trading is you only need a small fraction of your capital to trade and there are shops which would let you take positions overnight or longer. That way you can have the buying power and still have your capital working on another venture or investment.

107. 107 Edwin Dec 2nd, 2007 at 1:31 am

     According to my knowledge there are 2 trading firms who are trading remotely from India. They are Swift trade and Capstone. Can anyone suggest any more firms trading US Market from India.

108. 108 PADRON Dec 2nd, 2007 at 5:05 am

     Babak,

     I was a managing clients at Morgan. I had full discretion over all trading decisions so i feel like i have experience with trading but not enough to exactly jump into a prop shop and start using leverage. I want to find a prop shop that would be a good place for to learn how to be an equity trader. Can you trade options at these prop shops? any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

109. 109 Piers Dec 2nd, 2007 at 10:38 am

     Rob,

     Most of the firms over here trade Futures rather than cash equities, but I know that Argo Traders focus on this area exclusively. Not sure on their setup but here is their website address.

     http://www.argo-traders.com/

     And this is a list of prop arcades from Trade2Win.

     http://www.trade2win.com/traderpedia/Trading_Arcade_Index

     Hope this helps.

110. 110 Stephen Dec 5th, 2007 at 11:49 pm

     To Padron …. email me, would like to talk lakekoho at hotmail.

     Also, anyone know how a Canadian can use a US prop firm without S 7?

     I’m an excellent trader (yes, and have been humbled) but need a prop trading opportunity with a US firm or as an alternative, a partnership with a US citizen and I teach him/her ….

     Thanks

     Stephen

111. 111 Babak Dec 5th, 2007 at 11:54 pm

     Stephen,
     if you’re Canadian, you don’t need to get your S7 to trade prop with a US firm. That’s the law. Just contact the prop firm you want to work with and do your due diligence.

112. 112 Joe Dec 6th, 2007 at 4:51 pm

     People, I have been reading you thread and let me say it is a great one. I have traded with various firms in Chicago and decided to go remote. I have been doing this for the past 3 years. It is great having no desk fee and having the freedom to do what you want when you want.

     I have traded remotely with different firms, but have finally got the firm that suits my needs. My two biggest needs are cheap commissions and execution time. This firm gave me the cheapest commission charges I have ever incurred and executions are executed the second I hit the enter key.

     For non experienced traders they offer a virtual chat room. The owners gave me a free 2 day pass to check it out. If I was first breaking into the industry this would be something I would recommend.

     I started off at $.005/share…..they have really good break points
     20-1 leveraging
     and only a minimum of a $5000 deposit.

     I remember how hard of a time I had breaking into the trading industry. It was hard sorting through peoples BS and trying to find honest people. I hope I can help people out with any questions they have.

     If you have any questions feel free to email at mnfj80@gmail.com

113. 113 Stephen Dec 6th, 2007 at 8:03 pm

     Thanks for your information Joe. I am a Canadian who has just been offered a prop trading opportunity with a Canadian firm. I never knew these opportunities existed until offered. I signed the paperwork and will probably be funded sometime this week or next. I am in Florida for the winter so wish me luck. As a former CEO who suffered a nice big heart attack, my new quest has me a tad worried with the uncertainty, but I think I can do it. My children and a better work environment propel me to do this … and of course a passion for the markets.

     So would you be prepared to mentor me as I progress, if needed? I think my trading style is good but this is where the rubber hits the pavement. If I fail, I might impose on you and come see how you do it. If you are interested in my technique I am of course prepared to share but I send this letter as an opener.

     I have placed $20,000 down and they are giving me 10 X margin. They get net 20%. Trades are virtually free because I get a $.002/share for providing liquidity (this is what I get charged as well) so I should be able to trade for free. The platform is new to me and I have been learning it the last week. It seems sound but I have three monitors and am unable to sort a layout.

     Would you be prepared to mentor me as I chug along?

     Stephen

114. 114 Joe Dec 8th, 2007 at 9:16 pm

     Stephen,

     I have no problem lending you any expertise or help I can provide. Congratulations on your trading account! I understand your reasoning for getting into trading. If done successfully this will give you some financial freedom and more spare time to spend with your loved ones. My first recommendation is to take things slowly for the first couple of months.

     I was wondering if you have any monthly fees? What are they providing you in order to keep 20% of your profits? How do they structure your pay-out? If I am taking in everything correctly….you are a remote trader, .002/share, 80% pay-out, and 10-1 leveraging?

     I hope that this will be a successful endeavor for yourself. If you need any help or have any questions feel free to ask.

     Do you have a AIM, Yahoo screen name? I am on it all day during trading hours and have no problem shooting around ideas.

     Regards,

     Joe Foxx

115. 115 Dan Dec 8th, 2007 at 10:11 pm

     Hi Joe,
     I just read your posting on finding a good prop firm that you’ve been with for three years. I’ve been trading full time for two years and have lost alot of money. Over the last three months I have finally become profitable, ie consistent profits almost everyday. I feel like this has been a long painful education.

     Needless to say my account has been dessimated. Though profitable, I’m just barely paying all my bills and staying above the 25K daytrading limit. Therefore I’ve been looking at prop firms. The industry seems very “shady” and I don’t have alot of trust in what I’ve seen so far. I’m looking for a trustworthy firm with low fees. Some training would be useful but I’m doing pretty good already. Any recommendation would be highly appreciated. Please write me at dalvarez43@sbcglobal.net

     Thanks

116. 116 Stephen Dec 8th, 2007 at 11:04 pm

     Joe,

     You are correct in your assessment on fees, etc. In terms of what my prop firm is providing, I get 10X margin as opposed to the standard of 3X (that is the norm for retail accounts in Canada). Contrary to what is said on this page, US brokerage firms will not open accounts for Canadians. It is a regulatory issue that contravenes Cdn regulations, not American ones. I’ve heard the same story from three large US brokers and would like anyone on this page to prove me wrong as it would open an option for me.

     I’d like to inform you of my strategy for your scrutiny but not here as it is too public. I’d also be very interested in your strategy. I’d like you to attack my method and have some questions on Level II and on ECN routing.

     I am sailenya at yahoo and will keep it open. I do not have an email account with yahoo but will give you either a gmail or hotmail address where we can communicate.

     Thanks for your help. I’m at a critical stage of trading and need someone to watch over my shoulder and to kick my butt if needed, as I will one day kick the butt of another!

     Stephen

     (ps. I trade the XLF, the QQQQ, the SMH and the SPY. You might be interested how I do it!)

117. 117 Babak Dec 9th, 2007 at 4:43 pm

     Stephen,
     prop firms do not have the same relationship with you as a trader that say, Ameritrade would with you as a retail trader. The legal framework is different, so yes a Canadian can trade prop with a US firm.

     But I’d be really careful about it. You have to do a lot of due diligence because unfortunately there are a lot of unscrupulous people and firms out there. Be careful, don’t take anything anyone, including me, says. Check it for yourself. Then double check it.

118. 118 Len Dec 13th, 2007 at 1:33 am

     I am looking to join a reputable prop trading firm in San Francisco area. I have been trading my own account with Fidelity for 10 yrs, but now I want to join a firm and trade the firm’s money. Can anybody give me any names? I wouls greatly appreciate it.

119. 119 Egarim Dec 13th, 2007 at 2:08 am

     Hi,

     I just interviewed with Nexis Capital. Although, I didn’t get the job offer just yet, I’m pretty sure I will get one as all the top managers said I was exactly what they were looking for. Anyways, the information I have gathered so far is:
     First 6months is training.
     .006/share commission.
     Capital Contribution:
     0 - 50% profits
     2.5k - 60%
     5k - 70%
     10k - 80%
     As long as I stay past 6months, I will still get my 10k back. If I were to leave before then, then they would subtract my losses from the 10k and give me back the rest.

     Some background on me. I will be graduating May 2008 from NYU with a GPA close to 3.9. I am econ major with math/physics minor. I have played poker professionally for the past year and paid my way through college. I think I can live comfortably for the next year with no income (although I would prefer making lots of money as soon as possible).

     What do others think of this deal? Is this a good deal? The people I met there seemed nice and honest. Their training program seemed really good compared to other prop firms. The commission seems a bit high though. It’s been really tough trying to figure out which firms are good/bad. Every firm I’ve visited has tried really hard to sell themselves to me. Differentiating between the BS and real stuff has been difficult. I’d appreciate any input. Thanks!

120. 120 Gram Wellington Dec 13th, 2007 at 10:42 am

     Len/Egarim

     The post listed above you guys arima capital. They payout 100% profits. I use to trade with them remotely from my home office. They do not do splits like most of the prop firms out there. I only had to put up 2,500 to get 10:1 intraday leverage and 4:1 overnight, but most traders put up 5k to start. If you have your 7,63 licenses of course you can get much more leverage. I wanted to enroll in their training course when I use to trade with them but I don’t live near them so I opened a remote account and communicated with one of their experienced traders by skype. They use the Annvil software which I found to be the best so far. You can probably get a remote rate through them around 0.0035 depending how much volume you do per month.

     Egarim

     You might want to watch out for those commision splits and having your funds locked up in the company, speak with other traders, you might want to reconsider your options, rate is extremely high as well.

121. 121 David Dec 14th, 2007 at 2:25 pm

     Babak -

     Can you provide a list of boutique investment banks in nyc? perhaps 5-10? Trying to get onto a trade desk in a junior role.

     what are your thoughts working on the amex floor as a specialist? a dying breed?

122. 122 Dpac Dec 16th, 2007 at 10:31 am

     hello Edwin,
     prop trading firm called FuturesFirst is operating 6 offices out of Inida. They mainly trade (short term) Interest rate and commodity futures. You need not deposit any money with them to trade. In turn they pay you a fixed salary for working with them and a good % of the profits, as commission, you make! and has a VERY GOOD maket share in LIFFE, EUREX, ICE, BRENT and CME.

123. 123 Josh Dec 17th, 2007 at 8:27 am

     Looking for a good Chicago prop firm willing to hire a high school graduate? ( Low commission )

124. 124 Babak Dec 17th, 2007 at 9:34 pm

     David, my advice would be to try foreign banks that are either trying to get a toehold or are already established with a small base. AMEX is another way to go, even if you don’t make it a career, it can be a great training ground for better and bigger things.

125. 125 MOS Dec 18th, 2007 at 3:11 pm

     Hello! We need help!!!!!!!!!!
     Our brocker Genesis gave us the recalculation today. They said its from INET ECN “Currently some backcharges were posted to your account, from INET ECN reroute fees, which lowered your equity ” its the recalculation of routing fees from 1 may to 4 december 2007!!!!! Its too big and we thing that Genesis are trying to cheat us. We have been charged 0.0006 per share. Big money.
     We havent heard about that. Have somebody recieved the same recalculation?How can we investigate is this data true?
     SOMEBODY HELP!!!

126. 126 Ben Dec 19th, 2007 at 12:35 am

     Egarim, I’m going to do a big favor for you. Go read the comments starting August in this blog…just scroll up and read. You are about to get robbed big time by nexxxxxxxis!!! Give them your money and after 6 months you’ll get it back…hahahha…no chance in hell that you’ll see that money again…no way!!! Don’t worry, by the end of the 6 months they will tell you that you owe them 30k!!!! Even if you make money and are a good trader, you’ll end up losing net because of the transaction fees. Trust me, scroll up and start reading the August comments…you have a nice education…save it for something better!!

127. 127 Stephen Dec 19th, 2007 at 4:42 am

     Where did Joe go? Haven’t seen you pop up on chat …. would ike to accept the mentoring offer.

     Anyone heard of Liquid Trading? Not much on the web. 100% payouts but they didn’t ask for any signed contracts other than the usual NYSE, NASDAQ agreements, which has me concerned. Any comments?

     Laslty, I am taking it the only reason prop firms exist is due to traders not wantong to place much up front. Is the whole objective here nothing more than building an account so that you can jump into a retail account? I can’t see much more ….

128. 128 McNuggets Dec 21st, 2007 at 8:14 pm

     Anyone hear of a www.nextleveltradingcapital.com? Why aren’t they on the list? They seem to be funded largely with assets overseas, offer min 2k, trade remotely with 100 percent payout monthly. I don’t see all the risk as mentioned in the previous comments. Can trade capital without series 7, at location or remotely. Why would anyone pay a larger sum, if they have 30k, then open a retail amtd account. Learn from making errors, and just because they offer 80k to 150k of trading power, don’t do anything your not totally comfortable to do, as no training in the world, or education, could prepare you 100 percent for a trading career. It’s all instinct, and guts. You either have it, or don’t.

129. 129 Stephen Dec 21st, 2007 at 8:23 pm

     I concur with McNuggets guy!
     Re the education comment, John Maynard Keynes said it best:
     “Successful investing is anticipating the anticipations of others”.
     That is guts not school.
     I knew RIMM would perform well and knew even if they didn’t they would cite ipportunities in South America and Asia. It was all there for the taking …. and I took. I have two degrees after my name but read Rich Man Poor Man to give you a sense (cents) of what they are worth on the market !!!!

130. 130 Alfi Dec 21st, 2007 at 11:14 pm

     hey stephen
     just a remark
     if you say YOU KNEW RIMM WOULD PERFORM WELL.
     its like you want to tell us that you are able to predict the future? )
     if thats the case, you must be already a millionair.

     there is no way, one of you KNOWS and KNEW where a stock will be in the future. ok ok..maybe some of the stocks you looked at, did go higher..some of them didnt….

     However I dont think you can win in this game if you have a FEELING where the stock will be. because there is just no freaking way somebody knows that. and if somebody states so, they are just full of crap.

     just a remark…sorry..:-))

131. 131 Saurabh Dec 22nd, 2007 at 3:35 am

     I,m Saurabh from India. Interested in Trading jobs. Read about firms like Swift Trade,Capstone and futured first in india. I just applied at Capstone but could not find where to apply to swift trade. Could anyone help me in applying there (in india). Also if anyone could help me in finding more trading firms in india as the number of firms in india is limited. As compared to US where there are so many options. Do let me know .

     Thanks
     Saurabh

132. 132 Babak Dec 22nd, 2007 at 12:44 pm

     Stephen, there are many other advantages to prop firms: access to mentorship, exclusive data and networks, incredibly low commissions, etc… The right prop shop offers much more.

     McNuggets, I think you mean .net and the reason they aren’t on the list is because I had never heard of them until now. But are they really a prop firm or some other form of animal? I’ll read about them more and if they qualify add them to the list. Thanks.

     Saurabh, go to Swift Trade’s website and then from there the international section.

133. 133 Ronnie Dec 23rd, 2007 at 9:26 am

     Im currently Trading at a prop firm in London, but wanting to moving to the west cost of the US can anyone give me info on M&N trading out of Newport beach or any other prop houses.

134. 134 Babak Dec 27th, 2007 at 6:30 pm

     Ron, thanks for the (self)-plug lol
     When your site is up, send me a short note and I’ll add you to the list
     Cheers and have a safe and merry new year

135. 135 Damian Dec 28th, 2007 at 5:16 pm

     Hello:
     Are there any prop firms which specialize in automated strategies for the futures market? I’m a system developer, currently tracking my systems on StrategyRunner. Would like to trade my strategies for a firm if possible.
     Thanks for the input!
     Regards,
     Damian

136. 136 Joe Jan 3rd, 2008 at 2:06 pm

     Just wanted to wish everybody a happy new year. Hopefully everbodys 08 will be even better than 07. Best of luck on all investments.

137. 137 Vik Jan 3rd, 2008 at 8:31 pm

     I just got an offer from Lynx capital to become a trader. Does anyone know anything about this firm?

138. 138 kw Jan 5th, 2008 at 11:56 am

     Vik,

     What city is the firm in? I traded with Lynx in San Diego a few years back, but since then they changed names a couple of times (I am not with them at this time, so I am not sure what they are called now). At the time, Lynx was a sub-LLC of Assent I believe and had a local ownership group. Those guys were pretty cool and I was treated very fairly.

     This goes for any prop firm office: I think your experience will depend on the local principals and how they run the business. The best thing to do is try and contact a couple of their traders away from the office so you can get as honest an opinion as possible. If you have met any during the interview process offer to buy them lunch so you can chat for a few minutes. Most traders I know won’t turn down free food.

139. 139 mark h. Jan 7th, 2008 at 11:12 am

     Great thread going on here.

     Wondering if anyone knows of any good prop. shops in Asia, specifically Hong Kong. I have been offered a few jobs with a few different shops in the US and Canada, but for family reasons, and wanting to be closer to the asian economy, I think Hong Kong could be a decent place to start up.

     Thank you for any sort of tips or comments.

140. 140 Whathell Jan 9th, 2008 at 7:30 am

     anyone heard of Propex in Australia?

141. 141 paul Jan 10th, 2008 at 2:39 pm

     Hi everyone looking for proprietry trading companies on the west coast of America can anyone recommend any?

     Thanks

142. 142 Joe Jan 14th, 2008 at 7:23 pm

     Cornerstone Partners website

143. 143 Babak Jan 14th, 2008 at 10:09 pm

     Thanks Joe - added.

144. 144 joel Jan 16th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

     Has anyone heard of DV trading out of Toronto, or Chicago?

145. 145 daniel Jan 25th, 2008 at 7:05 pm

     thanks for this post, this was very useful.

     but I don’t know if you notice that about 10% of the above links do not work anymore. and they were posted only 9 months ago…

     being a remote foreign trader I’m becoming very skeptical to send my money to this kind of firms. If I could met them, well… it would be different. But for many of this links it seems to me it’s like sending money to a blog owner… I don’t know…

146. 146 Ed Jan 30th, 2008 at 1:32 pm

     The firm in the picture is http://www.MarexTrading.com taken when it was Refco at the 155 Bishopgate, City of London floor, I’m in it. The firm has cut back to 100 traders now from the 300 in the picture since the takeover, holds some very good traders.

     Propex is run by an old trading Manager from MacFutures/RefcoTradingServices/MarexTrading called Matt O’Brien he was a good manager here so should have exported a decent set up.

147. 147 Nick Johnson Feb 4th, 2008 at 5:10 pm

     I also just recieved an interview from T3 Trading (Formally Nexis Capital) I noticed that a few people took a job with them, since they merged and are now T3–any change in company culture? I”m considering working for them and wanted to know what your daily tasks were and your salary after the learning course? What was your interview like, anything would be useful please email me at sccrboy84@yahoo.com, thanks.

148. 148 Jon Feb 6th, 2008 at 5:01 pm

     KW,

     You seem to be very educated about this field. How does one educated themselves on prop trading? What books would you recommend. I’m about to start applying to firms so please let me know..

     Thanks,

     Jon

149. 149 Jon Feb 6th, 2008 at 5:15 pm

     I’m thinking about moving to NY. but could you elaborate more on that program?

     Could you also reccomend any reading material?

150. 150 Egarim Feb 7th, 2008 at 12:17 am

     Nick,

     I interviewed for T3 and got an offer. I ended up declining the offer. I didn’t like their recruitment process and I could sense they weren’t always telling the entire truth. I felt there were some white lies in there and it seemed a bit shady. The trader who was in charge of making most of the phone calls/e-mails etc. kept calling me up after the first interview as well. Although it was good that they showed a lot of interest in getting me, they were really pestering me a lot. Also, the interview process was quite different then elsewhere. For you first round interview, you meet with all upper management. You come in with a group of people and you rotate interviews with each person. The first round interview ends up being the only one too (atleast for me) which is weird imo. Overall, the firm seemed ok, but you should go there and judge for yourself. Make sure to ask lots of questions. One of the partners encourages and does a good job of answering them, but I felt like he was putting on a show and some of his answers were not entirely honest. That’s just my opinion.

151. 151 Jon Feb 7th, 2008 at 12:02 pm

     Prop Trading VS Equity Research? Any opinions?

152. 152 Karel Feb 12th, 2008 at 1:17 am

     Hi,
     How I can find Proprietary trading Firm in MIAMI ?
     Thank you

153. 153 Ebony Boller Feb 16th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

     Hello, Publisher

     I thank you for the list you have provided above. I am still a little confused. I wish to work for one of these proprietary companies. I am not quite sure how to go about finding the right one. I live in Charlotte, NC and I don’t have the funds to travel outside the country. I want a firm that will train me, and pay me a commission to trade for them. I currently have my series 6,63, and 7. Would you please make some recommendations for me.

     Thank you,
     Ebony Boller

154. 154 Babak Feb 16th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

     EB,
     Call any of them and they’ll straighten you out:

     *firms don’t pay commission, they charge a commission!
     *you can trade remote with a firm not in your city/state/country
     *training (if any) depends on the firm
     *choosing a prop firm is up to you - perform full due diligence

155. 155 Sean Feb 20th, 2008 at 12:05 am

     I’m a recent college graduate who has some unrelated work experience but am looking to start a career in trading. Can anyone recomend some good comapnies for me to look into ? Thanks.

156. 156 James Feb 27th, 2008 at 12:32 pm

     anyone hear about these guys? prop firm in Miami Beach. let me know if anyone knows anything. thanks

157. 157 ed mulvihill Feb 28th, 2008 at 1:13 pm

     Does anyone know any developers of trading systems?
     I have an opening with an options trading firm

     Ed

158. 158 brock Feb 29th, 2008 at 5:09 pm

     Prop Firms in Miami Beach

     Yes there some firms in Miami. Assent LLC in called Waserman Capital which is located at 420 Lincoln Rd. Suite 233. I am getting ready to start there myself. The capital contribution is 7,500 at the leverage you 10 to 1 starting with 300 shares and charging a penny per share. There is also Trillium Trading and Keystone is opening an office. I really don’t know much about these firms. If someone knows what the deal is with these firms please let me know.

     I would also like some information from the various Option Prop Shops.

     This site is a very usefull

     Thank You,

159. 159 Jon Feb 29th, 2008 at 5:13 pm

     Hey Brock, thanks for posting that info.

     Can I shoot you an e-mail?

160. 160 JT Mar 3rd, 2008 at 12:59 am

     Is there a way to narrow the prop list to city/state?

     I’m trying to find some in Georgia

     thanks

161. 161 Ankit Mar 5th, 2008 at 4:12 am

     Hi saurabh,
     like you im from india too….did u get ne reply from capstone or swift trade?have u found any other prop trading firms in india?please advise.

     also can anyone else help me with some more of prop trading firms in india?

     thnx

162. 162 Frank Mar 10th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

     Hey guys question,

     Chimera Capital out of NYC. Anybody here anything? And what can a decent trader expect, salarywise.

163. 163 Mike Mar 13th, 2008 at 6:44 pm

     Just had two questions if anyone can answer these

     If you live in Canada and are looking to trade with a proprietary firm and take this so called “Series 7 course” would a U.S. prop firm be able to hire them and give them the leverage every prop trader receives? Are they then considered proprietary by the sec?

     Also

     I see that a equity trading firm in CA Tuco Trading was shut down for taking an initial capital contribution from traders? Does the SEC not allow this anymore? Do all equity traders now have to have their series7?

     These are very foggy subjects I am having trouble finding the answers on thanks

164. 164 Babak Mar 15th, 2008 at 1:56 am

     Mike,
     re Tuco, they were charged by the SEC for serious violations that had nothing to do with “capital contribution” from traders. Read the link. These may also be enlightening:
     
     SEC vs Tuco Court Order (PDF document)
     FINRA

     AFAIK, if you are a Canadian citizen/resident, you do not need series 7 registration. It is only for US citizens/residents. So you can trade remotely, while living in Canada, with a US prop firm. But again, this is based on info I have at the moment, I’m not a lawyer so don’t take this as gospel.

165. 165 Mike Mar 15th, 2008 at 8:37 am

     Babak

     I do a lot of reading on several message forums regarding equity/prop trading. There is some bad stuff going on out there, I see message forums deleting certain threads that pertain to this tuco thing and it looks like all trading firms are on hold regarding the court status this week of tuco. Seems there might be a sting coming to all these equity trading firms. If all these equity trading firms can only hire prop traders (series 7) or customer accounts minimum of 30k and provide them with 4:1 intraday and 2:1 overnight I know traders who will be living in the streets soon and sub/LLC’s will start shutting down one after one.

     Babak what are your thoughts on this??

166. 166 Babak Mar 15th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

     Mike, I don’t think any of that is happening. If you actually find out why Tuco got into trouble with the SEC you’ll see that this is just fear (false evidence appearing real).

167. 167 Peter Mar 24th, 2008 at 4:09 pm

     Hi Babak,
     did you check about the nextlevel capital. Are they scam? You haven’t added the company to the prop list.

168. 168 Babak Mar 27th, 2008 at 11:00 pm

     Peter, I’ve added them. Originally I thought you were talking about next level capital instead of next level trading capital. So many names!

169. 169 Matt Mar 31st, 2008 at 4:42 am

     Hi guys,

     I have been trading equities full-time (with a decent profit) for a year now and am moving into index futures.

     I am in Sydney, Australia and want to know if any of you guys know any prop firm here or anywhere else in Australia (other than Propex)?

     I am mainly looking for the mentorship provided there by professionals who make a living out of trading (no fake vendors). Along with the quick transaction times (to minimise slippage) and low commissions.

     Thanks

     Matt

170. 170 Jarrod Apr 1st, 2008 at 12:13 pm

     Has anyone heard of RBC Professional Trading Group in NYC?
     I interviewed with them several weeks ago and they seem to good to be true…
     No intial contribution, however one has to accumulate $25,000.00 before one begins earning any compensation. (They said it would take 9-12 months to do so…)

     If anyone has heard anything about them, any other info about them would be greatly appreciated.

171. 171 Jeff Apr 2nd, 2008 at 3:29 pm

     Jarrod,
     I’m looking for a prop shop in NYC too. Lets talk. email me at beilinsonj@yahoo.com

     Jeff

172. 172 Byron Apr 6th, 2008 at 11:20 pm

     Wow, thank you. I was just spending this Sunday searching the web for exactly this info, much appreciated for putting it all together. I’ve subscribed to your email updates and added the feed to my rss reader. Gracias.

173. 173 Kobi Apr 7th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

     Babak,

     Do you have a list of firms that don’t require capital commitments, pay a small starting salary and have extensive training programs?

     For example, Trillium Trading would fit this model. Any idea about which other firms do the same?

174. 174 Byron Apr 7th, 2008 at 8:25 pm

     Second Kobi’s question. When I get a chance will go through the list looking for such firms and repost them in the comments. May not be able to till the weekend, though.

175. 175 Joey Apr 8th, 2008 at 9:25 am

     Do any of these propietary firms see any kind of order flow or do they all just trade off electronic quotes? I prefer to see flow myself and would like to hook up with a group that okays this.

176. 176 Steve Apr 8th, 2008 at 3:20 pm

     Does anyone know of a Prop in Orlando, FL Area? Thanks in advance

177. 177 hallligan Apr 10th, 2008 at 7:07 am

     Has anyone heard about CBDTrading group, prestigecapital, staralliancecapital.com
     They seem to be branches of one
     A friend of mine has been trading with them but every year the site where he is logging in (TRADER LOGIN) changing.
     So far he got all money he has profited.
     I am planning to open account with them, now the site is staralliancecapital.com
     Anyone who has heard about them? Any comments?

178. 178 Paranoid Trader Apr 13th, 2008 at 10:37 pm

     Good evening ladies and gents,

     I am looking for a way to forklift myself out of the current golden cage I’m in and into a position that has less limited upside.

     Over some twelve years I amassed huge amount of knowledge trading futures, options on futures, volatility instruments and lots of other stuff. I can hedge a book on the fly in my head, can see out mis-priced trades in fractions of a second and generally believe that in the long run there is no way to make money in linear markets (equities and futures) unless someone else is making much more on your back. This is exacerbated by the fact that I’m working for a very hard core sell-side solution firm.

     After all the pessimism and paranoia, though, I’m able to churn out a good

179. 179 Paranoid Trader Apr 13th, 2008 at 10:46 pm

     … and steady 2-6 % return per month in a flaccid market and a juicy 8%-12% monthly when markets are out of whack. These aren’t the 150% per day daytrading returns props are looking for, and most of them don’t really understand options anyway (not that I do, but at least I know enough to plug all the obvious holes and come home alive).

     Problem is that my resume is entirely technical; I make a six figures in a senior technical role and nowhere in sight will my path cross that of a trading desk, certainly not a kind of desk that I’m looking for.

     I need a firm that would honestly lever me a couple bucks so that I’ll be able to steadily roll in my five percent a month, with a 13-18% or so exposure and build on top of this. If it was some relatively small shop where technical and trading roles could be really combined, more power to them. If anyone has ideas for me, feel free to email paranoidtrader AT gmail.com . If you’ll help me make my first billion, I’ll track you down personally and will give you your cut.

180. 180 Mark Apr 16th, 2008 at 10:06 pm

     I know someone who used to work for Nexis, and I wouldn’t recommend it. They supposedly give you training, but trust me, the guys who are doing the training don’t know what they are doing. However, they partnered with a new firm, and so maybe they are training better than they used to. But after a few months alot of people were really depressed and just gave up. I think that’s just how prop trading is in general. If you are going to try to trade for a prop firm be ready to do a lot of learning and studying on your own.

     As for Star Alliance Capital . . . it’s nicknamed “the revolving door.” They have traders landing and leaving like flies. Nexis used to share space with them, and they weren’t very great. I think they just took in anyone with the capital.

181. 181 Halligan Apr 18th, 2008 at 9:10 am

     Thank you Mark. Your comment was realy useful.
     Who knows about Cygroup. Anyone worked with them?

182. 182 gary Apr 18th, 2008 at 1:41 pm

     trying to find a Proprietary trading firm or trading arcades in south florida west or east side if any info please let me know
     Thanks gary

183. 183 Jeremy Apr 20th, 2008 at 10:50 pm

     Does anyone know which of these firms do not require capital contribution and/or provide a base salary? I am coming out of college and looking for employment with a prop trading firm, but have no money or experience.

184. 184 Samantha Apr 22nd, 2008 at 10:43 pm

     Hey everyone -

     I have been trading on my own for over a year and am thinking of joining a prop firm - trouble is half of what is written here on this board scares the heck out of me and really doesn’t give me much incentive past what I already have.

     There is a company called Assent that has an office here but you have to get licensed and their are alot of account restrictions.

     Is it really all that BETTER to trade with a remote prop firm and if so - which one? Is there a better one than Assent out there?

     Thanks!

185. 185 Babak Apr 22nd, 2008 at 11:58 pm

     Gary, I’m going to break the listing down to include geographic locations and other info.

     Jeremy, the one firm I know that doesn’t require capital contribution is Swift but I have heard some negative things about them. It depends which office you join since I’ve also heard good things. So keep your wits about and do not put up with any BS from them.

     Samantha, Assent is a good firm from what I hear but you have to find a firm that works for you and that may not be the biggest or the best known. I’ll do a post on the advantages/disadvantages of a prop firm vs. on your own.

186. 186 Mark Apr 23rd, 2008 at 10:08 am

     hi guys

     I am new to trading NYSE and NASD as I’m over here in London trading Xetra and LSE. I’m currently at a UK based prop shop and they have just gotten access to NYSE and NASD. I’m pretty stoked about this and the rates they have quoted are: $0.01/share discounted down to $0.005 per share including all other fees based on volume discounts. I’m a fully backed trader with limits up to $800,000 intraday. Does the rate seem a little high for a first-timer? Bearing in mind there aren’t many prop firms over here which offer the States. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

     Cheers

187. 187 Jon Apr 23rd, 2008 at 4:04 pm

     Are there 9 guys in here in Chicago that would want to put $10,000 together (each) and open a small office (or home office) trading futures and forex. Instead of looking for a prop shop we can just put something together ourselves. Just a thought. Let’s kick some ideas around…

188. 188 proptrading germany Apr 24th, 2008 at 4:29 pm

     VAN DER MOOLEN is obviously missing in your list (http://www.vandermoolen.com). They have quite successful proprietary trading branches in Cologne (Köln), Germany (not that far from Frankfurt) and Zug, Switzerland. In Amsterdam they also proptrade.
     They do not require any capital contribution, pay a salary and profit split. So if you search for a job at a prop house in Europe, its a good choice. You should speak German or English, but German speaking is not mandatory as a proprietary trader in Germany or Switzerland.

     Experienced profitable traders are always welcome to expand the team of about 30 traders right now in Cologne and Zug branches.

     Es gibt Offices von Van der Moolen in Köln, Deutschland sowie in Zug, Schweiz. Es wird nur Eigenhandel mit Firmenkapital betrieben. Händler erhalten ein Gehalt Bonus (profit split). Erfahrene profitable Trader Daytrader zur Erweiterung des Teams (derzeit ca. 30 Eigenhändler) werden immer gesucht.

189. 189 Babak Apr 24th, 2008 at 5:12 pm

     IMPORTANT!
     I’m always grateful for feedback from my readers, whether it is to know of changes to the list or new additions or any other relevant information. However…
     

     Comments that include advertisements and solicitations will be removed from the blog. I have zero tolerance for this so don’t be surprised if your comments are redacted, completely removed and/or your IP blocked.

190. 190 Jason Apr 25th, 2008 at 3:33 am

     Alright guys Im currently trading futures and equities in London and looking to move to the West coast of America and trade, can anyone give me any ideas of place to contact!

     Cheers!

191. 191 Mark Apr 25th, 2008 at 7:36 am

     With regard to VanderMoolen paying salaries and profit splits, could you tell me why they shut down the entires UK operation of Equity traders? Is it true they fired over 80 traders in the UK? Are the profit splits commensurate with the UK i.e 70% and upwards?

     Koennen Sie mir bitte ecklaren ob es richtig wahr ist dass VDM in London hat umgefehr 80 Leute entlassen? Was fuer ein % gibt’s in Deutschland ? Ist es genau so hoch wie in London Zb 70%?

192. 192 Jason Apr 25th, 2008 at 7:40 am

     yeah they got rid of the whole prop trading side of the business! Never had a down month!!

193. 193 Geezer Apr 25th, 2008 at 8:05 am

     VDM never had a down month and they still got rid of everyone? I heard they had over 50 trainees all earning a salary and only about 10 senior traders who they were hoping would subsidize all the juniors. I spoke to some of their ex-traders who said the profit splits were like 20-30% payable once a year and the desk costs were like £50K a year too. No wonder they only had trainees there. Surprised they managed to keep that many senior traders with those splits hahahahahah

194. 194 Paranoid Trader May 3rd, 2008 at 11:02 pm

     I really don’t understand why do otherwise intelligent people keep coming back to the hard core pure equities day-trading sweatshops, ridiculously undercapitalized, usually sparingly familiar with the underpinnings of the markets and believing all the crud that the “senior traders” tend to repeat. Yes, everyone is wired for gambling, but to think that one can make a living by simply trading linear securities with leverage up the wazoo - I don’t think that one is really in everyone’s bones …

195. 195 Chad May 6th, 2008 at 1:01 pm

     Hi, I’m just coming out of college and im looking for a prop shop that doesn’t require initial capital contribution. Do you guys know of any firms out there? I’m in the New York City area. Thank you

196. 196 Joe May 7th, 2008 at 12:23 pm

     Hey all, how much does a typical first year options trader make at a top equity derivatives market making prop shop (Think DRW, SIG, Wolverine….)? Are there initial capital contributions at these firms? Assume this is just a trader fresh out of undergrad on an electronic desk heavily monitored, as it takes years to make it down to the actual trading floor. I understand that the answer relies heavily on performance, but what is a feasible pay range for such a position?

197. 197 Babak May 7th, 2008 at 2:17 pm

     Chad, there are many who don’t require cap contribution. In fact I think most don’t. The more important point though is the quality of the firm not whether they require a deposit.

     Joe, why not contact the firms directly and ask?

198. 198 Joe May 7th, 2008 at 2:40 pm

     Babak, contacting the firm and asking is not a bad idea, however, the last thing I want to do is come across to the firm that I will be working at as greedy individual who is only concerned about how big his or her paycheck will be. With that said, does anybody know a round about ballpark range that a derivatives trader could make first year out?

199. 199 Alfi May 7th, 2008 at 5:08 pm

     why not ask the firm about your financial future and potential at the firm? are people nowdays afraid to ask the firm, what the firm is offering to them? It should be a natural part of the process. they interview you and your capabilities, talents and education..and you should do the same to them…what can they offer to you? what future and potential can the the company give you? why should you be working for them? and and and. ..interview them the same way they like to interview you. its a mutual rel.ship. .:-))

200. 200 Joe May 7th, 2008 at 7:01 pm

     Alfi, I agree with you to a certain extent. That is, the extent to which a full-time employee has the right to know what he or she will be paid. However, I should have stated this in my original post, but I am just going to be a summer intern at one of these firms. I am just trying to get a vision of how much a first year trader would/could make at one of these firms. Or stated differently, I’m trying to figure out if I should make a career out of derivatives trading (and no, pay is not the ONLY thing I’m concerned about). So all I was wondering was if anybody on this board had some figures for me to get a perspective of the position. So, as just an intern, I’m not going to call my firm and ask for this information because in my opinion that would send the wrong signals and make a bad first impression…..

201. 201 Babak May 7th, 2008 at 8:02 pm

     Joe, it all depends how you phrase it. If you appear to be researching all aspects of a potential job because you are trying to make a choice from among the options you have, I don’t think any firm will hold it against you. You can also ask at various online forums like elitetrader and maybe even better in this case, wilmott.

202. 202 Carl May 7th, 2008 at 11:28 pm

     Hi there -

     I am wondering if you are not licensed and want to open a prop account (remotely) with let’s say $5k or $10K as initial investment, can a company provide 10 to 1 or 20 to 1 leverage intraday without obtaining your Series 7, 63, 55 licenses? I don’t care about payouts if that gets around the issue but obviously I don’t want to do anything that is not legal.

     I am looking for a company I can start trading with immediately if this is okay to do -

203. 203 Jason May 8th, 2008 at 9:18 am

     Hi guys Im looking for any prop firms based on the West coast US, any ideas!?

     Cheers!

204. 204 Alfi May 8th, 2008 at 6:06 pm

     yes Carl
     You can trade remotely with putting 5k or 10k down and you dont have to have the mentioned licenses. there are plenty firms out there, that will give you 1:10 leverage. 1:20 would be rather possible if you had the licenses. so the licenses only give you a better deal. but otherwise its pretty much the same. you still have to make money and be profitable to survive, no matter if you have licenses or not..:-))
     but the answer is : YES. you can trade remotely without the licenses.

205. 205 Zach May 9th, 2008 at 2:45 am

     Hi,

     Has anyone ever heard of Genesis Investment Partners in Stamford, Ct? Apparently they may be a new firm, but I am pretty sure that they are affiliated with Access Securities (also Stamford, Ct). I have an interview with them next week, so any information would be greatly appreciated.

206. 206 tom May 13th, 2008 at 2:09 pm

     It would be much more useful to have ranking for the prop shops. Best Prop Firms top 10, and maybe best Trading Arcades Top 10.

     -Tom

207. 207 RiskofRuin May 14th, 2008 at 12:31 pm

     Opus Atlanta

     Has anyone heard of this prop firm? They’ve been advertising for the last month for trainees.

     Is the best strategy to :

     1) Not put any of your own money up as a contribution.

     2) Make fewer trades to not have to pay huge fees.

     3) Use very strict money management.

     4) Trade conservatively

     Is it possible to beat the prop game, and earn at least 30k in the first year. I’ve been paper trading since high school, and use demo accounts to practice this craft. How do you survive this game a winner? My endgame is to leave with enough money to trade under my own rules, and system.

208. 208 Babak May 14th, 2008 at 6:59 pm

     tom, re rankings, by who’s standards? the best prop firm for one trader may be the worst for another.

209. 209 Alfi May 15th, 2008 at 5:12 am

     to riskoruin:
     good luck with papertrading. however real trading is totally something different.
     go try and you will see

210. 210 YK May 15th, 2008 at 9:05 am

     Have a few questions about Prop shops: (first of all, great information here, thanks to all)

     1. It seems that most of the discusions here eludes to day trading only. Does any of these prop shops allow overnight holding or position holding that can last up to 2-3 weeks? Just wondering. I have been working on a strategy for the past 5 years, and finally found a perfect strategy. With only $4000 in capital, I was only abot to grab 65 shares of RIMM at $120.34 on April 23, 2008. I just sold them yesterday at $143.79 for a net profit of $1505, and that’s using the brokerage’s 2:1 leverage. As you can see, a prop shop would really help me leverage here.

     2. The list of prop shops is great, but can you be more specific, I’m especially looking for a prop shop that allows remote trading along with $0 or low capital. I’m not worried about making the money. One response above talked about a limit of 3 trades and 300 shares per day and $50K buying power. Ex. with 300 sh limit, I’d have used it to buy 300 sh. SINA at $53.20 yesterday and take it off this morning near $59.50 for about $1800 in gains. Now, if the fees add up to $1800 too, then forget about this.

     About my strategy: uses simple technical analysis, preferrably chart patterns combined with contrarian emphasis and short term fundamental analysis. In short, I’m looking for a strong stock with proven EPS and Revenue gains for past year against the reaction of the market crowd. What that leads too? Buy RIMM at $120 and selling at $140, buying IBM at $120 on May 1, 2008, and still holding it now at $127. For those who want a live trade, I also bought OTEX at $37.15, and it is still trading in that range. I’m looking for $50 on its next leg move. Better yet, buy OTEX Aug. 35 calls at $5.00. If OTEX hits $50 by expiration, we’re talking about 200% gains.

     Anyways, thanks in advance for your answers.

211. 211 Babak May 15th, 2008 at 3:28 pm

     YK, most prop shops would extend the services you’re looking for. You can hold overnight or for longer but be prepared to pay ‘haircut’ or interest rate charges. Again, most prop firms offer remote trading, low capital contribution, etc. Only thing is that some do not allow derivative trading and others specialize in it.

212. 212 YK May 15th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

     Thanks Babak, don’t mind if I ask a few more questions? I’m just trying to get a good read here before making a commitment.

     First of all, I noticed a lot of talk about commission prices, but there were no clear answer, so my question is What type of extra fees are included when joining a prop firm? (Ex. any seat fees, addtl market fees, etc) Just asking because I’m sure most of you guys trading for prop firms are losing money over only commission fees.

     For the experienced prop traders: What kind of restrictions did you face? Ex. couldn’t trade a certain time, couldn’t trade a certain stock, or maybe not making enough trades, etc. Anything you experienced would be helpful.

     Again, thank you all in advance for your answers.

213. 213 Alex May 18th, 2008 at 11:44 pm

     Hi Babak,

     I am seeking information on “The Angle Group” in NYC. Any information would be greatly appreciated.

     http://theanglegroup.com/

     Thanks

214. 214 JT May 19th, 2008 at 10:52 am

     Thanks for all your info and this Q & A setup Babak. I would like to expand on an earlier poster”s requests for a ranked list of prop firms. I am a newbie so my priorities for my list are 1)traing. 2)a firm’s desire to actually create profitable traders and not just an endless source of incoming contribution money. 3)size. One last question…..is Pacif Coast Trading still around? Link did not work and they didn’t come up on a search.

215. 215 Babak May 19th, 2008 at 11:34 am

     JT, thanks for the heads up. It looks like pacific is no more. As I mentioned before, since there is no objective basis for rating prop shops, it doesn’t make much sense.

216. 216 Nick Loyd May 19th, 2008 at 3:45 pm

     Alex, what do you want to know about the Angle group? I know that they make you take a class, which they charge $3,000 for. What type of firm are you looking for?

217. 217 tom May 20th, 2008 at 11:56 pm

     ranking prop shops can be based a list of criterias. I think there is a way…and if the prop shop is top tier usually there is a consensus among the community.

     A sample list of criteras

     Leverage: 6:1 or 10:1 or 60:1

     Sponsorship: Series 7

     Mentoring: What the level

     Community: Are top traders gathered at this firm

     Pricing: .01/share or .007/share or .005/share …also other fees

     Tech: Execution Speed, Routing, Charting Tools…etc

     Payout: 90% or 95% or 99%; Weekly, Monthly; Direct Deposit or Check

     Selectivity: How difficult is it to get in

     Financials: Does the trading firm have plenty of capital or is it on shaky ground?

     Reputation: How well known is it

     There could be others we should add to it but this could be major ones. Just put a rank between 1-10…10 being the highest….I have a feeling it’s more objective than you think, though some subjectivity will always be there.

     -Tom

218. 218 JT May 21st, 2008 at 10:36 am

     As Samantha alluded to in an earlier post, I would would very much like to hear from some of those 5-10 % of the prop traders who are successful. The seemingly small percentage of traders who succeed long-term does not deter me from entering the prop arena. We have heard plenty from the other 90-95 %ers who seem to have disdain for prop trading……..let’s here from those who are making it it! What are you doing correctly? What are the others doing wrong? I know that those are broad-stroke questions, but I think most of the readers come here to find out the bad AND the good. I am sure your input can help newbies like me avoid some potential trading land mines thus increasing our potential for success eponentially.

     and Tom- well composed list as far as my un-trained eyes can tell!

219. 219 Babak May 21st, 2008 at 2:12 pm

     Tom, thanks for your input. I’m still puzzled how you propose a quantifiable ranking based on these qualitative measures. For example, the leverage provided depends on the type of trading, experience and other conditions contingent on the specific situation. The same qualitative grey area can be said to exist for mentoring, commissions, selectivity, reputation, etc. For example, what is “plenty of capital” and how should we ascertain if a firm has it? what accounting measure or ratio should we use? The only black and white criterion is Series 7 sponsorship, and years in operation (which you didn’t mention). I look forward to hearing your ideas on this. Perhaps we can set up a sort of poll or voting widget.

220. 220 DP May 21st, 2008 at 11:02 pm

     Has anyone here actually made a salary with these firms that they were able to buy groceries with?

     and

     I’m looking into Title Trading. Do they require a contribution?

     thanks, helpful thread.

221. 221 Alfi May 22nd, 2008 at 6:07 am

     tom
     another criterie would be: does the firm keep your initial capital contribution for a certain time?
     Lets say, you want to close the trading account after a few months. how long does it take to get the money back?
     some company hold the fund for at least a year no matter what.

     plus
     whats the minimum contribution?
     is there any minimum monthly, weekly or daily volume, the trader has to trade? if so…what are the consequences, if you dont meet the creteria? (meaning, what kind of fees are coming towards you..??

222. 222 JT May 22nd, 2008 at 5:16 pm

     Let’s start with you Babak…….tell us about your world of trading. What do you trade? How long did it take you to become consistently profitable?

223. 223 Babak May 22nd, 2008 at 7:50 pm

     DP, over on elitetrader there are quite a few prop traders who post journals or contribute frequently.

     JT, I’m not trading with a prop firm and my trading has morphed into less frenetic and more swing-like or position like as time goes on.

224. 224 JT May 23rd, 2008 at 11:29 am

     TY for you policy that prohibits solicitation Babak. I have been coming the prop forum at ET and Bright trading is all over the boards trying to recruit and offer biased, glossed over answers in an attempt ot steer traders their way. BTW- someone did come up with a 3-tiered rating of prop firms you may want to look at. I Have no idea of the quality of the list or the metrics he used to compile it. thought you might want to take a look at it since we have discussed the concept here.

225. 225 Ank May 24th, 2008 at 1:12 pm

     Hi,

     I was just wondering if anyone has any idea abt the first interview at allston. Also is there any website to pratice fro logical and math test ?

226. 226 hp May 30th, 2008 at 1:50 am

     This is a great service. I wish you all could list per state in the US. It makes it easier to browse and find a possible trading home. Thanks

227. 227 Chad May 31st, 2008 at 4:18 am

     Babak,

     I got an offter to trade with Lynx Capital Partners in NYC. Do you or does anybody know anything good or bad about this firm???? It seems like a good place but I just want to make sure. Thanks man

228. 228 Babak Jun 1st, 2008 at 6:55 pm

     Ank, not offhand but you can google for microsoft/google interview type questions. The only site I know of is lumosity but am sure there are more around.

     hp, I’m working on making the info more useful and continue to keep it up to date. I’m not sure parsing it that finely would be helpful since remote trading and the competitive nature of the industry makes it irrelevant for the most part.

     Chat, I haven’t heard anything negative about them. I would suggest you search elitetrader and other trading boards for info from past/present traders there. Best of luck.

229. 229 Learner Jun 2nd, 2008 at 8:46 am

     Chad: you asked about Lynx in NYC … I did not see any feedback… do you get any ?

230. 230 Chad Jun 2nd, 2008 at 5:39 pm

     Learner,

     I didnt get much feedback but from what I got it seems like a good company. Why, do you know something?

231. 231 Learner Jun 2nd, 2008 at 7:23 pm

     My son got an offer from Lynx… but he’s on a trip now…so I am trying to get educated on this this entire arena. Where are you from?

232. 232 Chad Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:35 am

     Learner,

     Im from Freehold Nj. Is your son going to take the offer? If you dont mind me asking? If he does maybe I’ll be training with him. Hopefully they have a good training program

233. 233 RTB Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:06 pm

     Here are some questions from my timed oral math interview today (3rd round). I know it’s also important to measure how you respond, but does anyone else want to share some of their own?

     ****************************

     1. If Jack has an account worth $1,000 and it decreases by $100, then by what percent does it need to increase to break even?

     2. If there is a hat with 2 green balls, 6 red balls, 3 yellow balls, and 4 orange balls, what fraction represents the probability that you will grab a yellow or green ball?

     3. If 5 times the first number equals 6 times the second number and if 2 times the first number is equal to 16 more than the second number, then what is the second number?

     4. If you have 8 coins worth $1.45 and you have an equal chance of grabbing any one of them, then what type of coin are you most likely to grab?

     5. If it takes a snail 1 day to climb 5 meters of a wall, but it slides down 4 meters each night, then how many days will it take for the snail to reach the top of a 20 meter wall?

     6. If there are 3 faucets, one takes 20 minutes to fill the sink, another takes 12 minutes to fill it, and the last one takes 5 minutes, then how long does it take to fill the sink if all 3 are on at the same time?

     7. If you average 80% on 3 tests, then what score do you have to get on the 4th to bring your average up to 85%?

     8. If the top of a ladder is leaning up against the top of a wall 7 meters high and pulling back the ladder by 1 foot allows it to lay flat on the ground up to the base of the wall, then how long is the ladder?

234. 234 RTB Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:17 pm

     Oh…and they make the explanation of the test super long-winded and repetitive to mess with your anxiety level because you are anticipating it so much…at least I was…I love these tests! But I totally failed. I can’t believe some of the answers I gave, and with such CONVICTION in my voice…and the whole time she was telling me how great I was doing…ha! At least I am good at sales…

235. 235 ank Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:23 pm

     RTB: Which company u got interviewed who ask maths question orally!

236. 236 RTB Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:36 pm

     Oh…this one is cool

     Four people need to cross a rickety rope bridge to get back to their camp at night. Unfortunately, they only have one flashlight and it only has enough light left for seventeen minutes. The bridge is too dangerous to cross without a flashlight, and it’s only strong enough to support two people at any given time.

     Each of the campers walks at a different speed. One can cross the bridge in 1 minute, another in 2 minutes, the third in 5 minutes, and the slow poke takes 10 minutes to cross. How do the campers make it across in 17 minutes?

     The solution is simple, your behavior in solving it is what is important. They re just another form of behavioral questions. The reason I failed this part of the inteview was not that I got the wrong answer. Rather, it was because I was hasty in answering them. I even gave up my alotted time on one question because I figured I had no idea how to answer it, but I might have been able to figure it out.

     To answer your question, I won’t tell you the name of the company. This was only my first interview with a prop firm, but I imagine they test you on this if they are in need of programmers to write and or maintain their algorithms. But isn’t that what prop firms do?

     Does the training consist primarily of learning about writing agorithms or trading securities?

237. 237 Byron Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:40 pm

     Ank: For brain teaser/logic question interview practice, try this book Work through that sucker and you’ll be nearly unstumpable.

     Edit, that was the 2000 version, it has since been updated twice (2003 and 2008)

     Also from Wilmott

238. 238 RTB Jun 3rd, 2008 at 4:51 pm

     i just bought it…i can’t wait!

239. 239 dee Jun 11th, 2008 at 2:51 pm

     can’t they all cross in 10 minutes?

     slowpoke takes 10 minutes, so he gets goin. he holds the flash light the whole time.

     mr. 5 minutes goes,

     then mr. 2 minutes,

     then mr. 1 minute.

     by the time the quickest 3 get across, slowpoke still has 2 minutes left to get across.

     what the hell’s wrong with that?

240. 240 Justin Jun 14th, 2008 at 4:39 pm

     Babak or anyone else, will you please give me some input on Bright trading? I was trying to get some info from Elite Trader but Don Bright (the owner) is very active in the forums. It is hard to get info without him hovering and sending a tons of PMs. He said his traders usually put up 20K allowing them to trade a million.

241. 241 Byron Jun 17th, 2008 at 12:17 pm

     Anyone know anything about TCA Markets?

     http://www.tcamarkets.com/

     Remote trading, mentoring, trade company funds.

242. 242 Byron Jun 17th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

     dee: the flashlight has to be with the crossers. assume its batteries are almost dead and it can only illuminate the bridge right at the holder’s feet, no further.

     A&B cross, A comes back = 3m
     C&D cross, B comes back = 12m
     A&B cross = 2m
     Total time = 17m

243. 243 Babak Jun 17th, 2008 at 1:57 pm

     Justin, Don is a salesperson and he never turns it off so if you want to get info about Bright just ask for current and past traders or simply use the search function. There is ample discussion in the archives about Bright and there are many Bright traders to be found on ET. From what I know they skimp on the tech side of things (not an issue if you trade remote), they start their new traders on OO but they are one of the largest and oldest firms out there. You can always PM a few Bright traders and chat “off the record”. Cheers.

     Byron,
     google reveals some info from elitetrader and trade2win threads. To put it mildly, they have mixed reviews so tread carefully.

244. 244 Byron Jun 17th, 2008 at 3:53 pm

     Thanks Babak.

245. 245 Eugene Jun 18th, 2008 at 6:56 am

     Hi! Does anyone know of any prop trading firms hiring spot FX traders? Or banks/finance companies hiring FX spot traders? Thanks

246. 246 Mandeep Jun 18th, 2008 at 1:17 pm

     Many thanks for putting this list together, didn’t realise there were so many firms…….awesome!!
     Would greatly appreciate if someone could help with a couple of queries.
     When these companies ask for experienced traders, over how long a time frame do they like to see consistent profits before they consider taking you on and what percentage of profits do they take for beginners?

247. 247 Prospectus Jun 22nd, 2008 at 12:43 am

     I’ve traded part-time with Remata Trading for the past year or so. Thomas Lanzana is outstanding to work with, and I would stay with Remata all things being equal. However, they have just recently decided to stop using their web-based order system, which I need to use (firewalls at work and all that–I only have access to port 80).

     So, I am looking for a firm that has a web-based order entry option, will allow me to be free of pattern daytrader restrictions, and has no desk or software fees (I only trade part time as I get free moments at work), just commissions. I am also coding some autotrading software so I can be away from the markets but still be involved, so an API would be cool, but not required with a web-based system.

     Does anybody know any of these firms that would meet my needs (web-based order entry, no fees, no PDT?)

248. 248 Jack Jun 26th, 2008 at 4:57 pm

     Can anyone give Me a list of of firms that require NO initial capital contribution? I hear a lot of people saying that lots of firms don’t, but no one can seem to provide a list.

249. 249 Ronnie Jun 27th, 2008 at 5:02 am

     Does anyone have any infomation on M&N Trading in Newport Beach?!

250. 250 Sol Jun 28th, 2008 at 2:16 am

     Hi everyone I was hoping to get some advice from some people in this forum.

     I have just started at one of the firms mentioned in this forum (and it’s a company that hasn’t got very good reviews and shall remain nameless).

     My deadline to pay the capital contribution is soon and I don’t know if this is something that I want to do for the next few months or even years. I keep getting tempted by the lure of large payouts, but then I read forums like this one and realize it’s not likely to happen.

     I’m really confused about what to do. Is it stupid of me to pay a capital contribution at all? Shall I just walk away or stick it out? I’m a recent college grad and I’m worried about not being employed in this job market - so that is a huge incentive for me to stay on.

     Also, can someone answer me a question that hasn’t been fully addressed yet? How do employers feel about traders who take a new career path (eg. accounting) after they are done trading? Are traders seen as people who couldn’t make into real business jobs? Is trading something you can put on your resume? How highly valued is trader experience by employers?

     I hope someone can answer my 2 questions separately because it would really help me in my decision making process.

     Thanks guys, all your advice so far is great.

     Sol.

251. 251 Alfi Jun 30th, 2008 at 5:55 am

     Sol
     I would advise you
     dont pay your money…if they want you to pay….screw them..and get out of it as soon as possible.
     I guarantee you, you will never see your money again, if you pay your contribution!

     Take my advise, or leave it..:-)) its up to you

252. 252 Michael Jul 1st, 2008 at 9:45 pm

     Hey all,
     I was not planning to post, though I changed my mind, because there is a lot of misinformation moving around on this board. It seems to me that the posts I have read fall into 1 of 2 categories. 1. Newbies who want to get an idea of the prop trading world. 2. Haters talking down the prop trading world.
     I have been prop trading for about a year now. I pay .04 cents share (.0004), and receive a 50% payout. My firm required no capital contribution. I lost about 7 K total in the first 6 months (2 months net flat, 4 months small losses), however my firm pays a 2k salary (not draw, salary). I was able to make this 7K back in the next 2 months, (yes it certainly helped that BSC went bankrupt). This month, my ninth, I grossed 14,500 on 1.5 million tickets so I netted about 8000 after SEC fee’s and such, meaning I took home about 4k on the month. Though these numbers are not extremely impressive, I recognize that there is a lot of potential for me to make much more in the future. Currently my buying power is only 100K and my max position size is 1000 shares.

     Aside from that, I love the job. There is a ton of freedom, and it is extremely exciting and interesting. I actually do look forward to going to work every morning. I do not understand the heavy veil of negativity that you all seem to feel towards prop trading firms. By no means is it “impossible to make money”. Think about it, even if your ticket cost (how much you pay per thousand shares) is 10 dollars a ticket, you would only have to make 2 cents a share per trade in order to break even. That is certainly not impossible.

     I am not saying that it is easy by any means, nor that everyone is having success. The truth is few people do succeed, and it is very difficult to put up any kind of a positive month in your first half of a year or so. However, if you have discipline, and work by a proven method (keep your losses small, let your profits run… trend is your friend) then there is no reason why you cannot be successful as a prop trader.

     It upsets me that there are so many negative posts about trading on this blog. I am extremely interested in what I am doing, and hope that I will be successful enough to continue this as a career. Had I read alot of these posts a year ago, I probably never would have started trading, and that would be extremely unfortunate considering how passionate I now am about the market. I definetly reccomend considering this job to anyone who is driven and has a passion for trading. You definetly need a stomach for loss, this is definetly a game that is more psychological then intellectualy, but great success is not a myth, it is certainly possible… Not easy, but possible.

     Don’t let the haters keep you from trading your way to financial freedom. Good luck everybody!

253. 253 Sol Jul 1st, 2008 at 10:21 pm

     Hi everyone, I’m just updating you on the decision that I have made so far. I decided on Monday that I did not want to pay the capital contribution to the firm that I was at and I left. I think it was definitely the right decision to make and I have no regrets.

     Big thanks to Alfi for the advice - it was definitely the correct thing to do. He is completely correct about not seeing your money again - let me explain. Last Friday I asked to see the profitability of some of the other traders at the firm where I worked and I was quite impressed. They were all gross positive in terms of their trades and had been working there for quite a few months. Then I saw their net profitability and I was shocked.

     For one guy, a $4k balance on his account turned into -$2500 after all the fees! That’s a $6500 swing because of all the fees and commissions etc. so basically he ended up owing the firm even more money than he had already committed! And he was not a bad trader at all!

     After doing more research I stumbled across the SEC filing against Tuco trading earlier this year. I had read this before in March when it came out and I didn’t really understand it, but I gave it a second look and I couldn’t believe what I read. All of the questionable tactics mentioned in the findings of fact were being used at the firm where I was working. I was blown away and couldn’t believe I had been so short-sighted. I’m glad that I stopped when I did, cause these firms aren’t getting a single cent out of me.

     I strongly recommend that everyone who is considering a career in trading to read this article - it’s extremely important.

     Here is the link:
     http://www.greencompany.com/PropTraders/Traders.shtml

     There is no doubt that I have made the correct decision. There is no need to pay to secure leverage at a firm - find a firm that requires no contribution and has a lower payout and that pays you a wage - only then can you ensure that the firm has your best interests at heart.

     To Michael (above): You seem to be doing well and have got yourself a great deal with a reputable company. But for anyone who is considering trading with a Sub LLC - forget about it - IT IS A WASTE OF TIME AND IT IS A SCAM!

254. 254 Byron Jul 1st, 2008 at 11:39 pm

     Thanks for the info, Michael and Sol. Michael, you wouldn’t be willing to share your company’s name, would you? Sounds like a good one.

255. 255 Iman Jul 4th, 2008 at 6:50 pm

     Dear Babak and other traders,

     I have seen a few people asking about firms in the SoCal/Orange County area but did not see any replies yet. Can someone give a shortlist of reputable firms in the OC area or even the top 3 remote firms to work for that will hang the series 7. Seems a lot of firms are shying away from hanging the license for whatever reason.
     I have a valid 3,7,55, and 63
     Thanks in advance,
     Iman

256. 256 Ben Jul 5th, 2008 at 1:44 am

     Sol:

     Great decision!! People have to understand that the chance of them getting back their capital contribution is almost ZERO!! The people interviewing at these firms make you think that it is really difficult to get a job with them, when the reality is that almost anyone with or without a degree can become a day trader. They just want your money! At Nexis there were traders making 1000 per day (gross) and I tell you that they all ended up leaving because of the ridiculous fees. You would see that after 6 months all the traders were down about 40k in their accounts…of course Nexis wasn’t losing 40k with each trader; this was just an excuse so that they didn’t have to pay you much more than a lousy 2000 dollar draw after each month…take away taxes and this is like having one 1700 dollar check per month…a really shitty salary!!

     Michael:

     Don’t get too excited man, we all had great months and felt the adrenaline like you.
     I know at least 10 or 15 guys that would gross 20k with the same buying power that you had, but at the end of the year their salary didn’t even sum up to 40k…and these were the absolute best guys. Realize that the market has been extremely good for the past year or more…there is a lot of fear and uncertainty in the economy and the Volatility has been abnormaly great for day traders. In fact, you should be grossing even more money with stocks like GS moving in a 5-10 dollar range in one day…in our days that stock was excellent and it only moved 2 or 3 points max. Also, think that when the market has no volatility and is dead, you will not make more than 2k in one month…trust me, the market is not always as good and as volatile.

     Finally, realize as well that this day trading experience will not look great in your resume for serious types of jobs. This will NOT help you to become a real trader at one of the big firms either. These prop trading firms are only good as an introduction to the stock market. You can learn valuable things that will help you in later in your career. BUT it does NOT pay to start by throwing away your money as a capital contribution. If you want to give this a shot, start with NO money down, and leave when you see that you have learned what you have to learn and realize that these guys only want your money.

257. 257 Sol Jul 6th, 2008 at 4:41 pm

     Ben,

     Thank you for the reassurance. I definitely feel that I made the right decision.

     After reading your last post I went back and read your previous contributions and you seem to be right on the money (excuse the pun) about the treatment of traders by these prop firms.

     Also, your insight about market volatility was also correct. The market has been very volatile in the last 6-9 months, and I think your observation about trading becoming more difficult with lower volumes is correct, and it essentially means that this type of *career* is not sustainable in the long run.

     I’d also like to thank you for addressing one of my other concerns - how trading looks for future jobs. I think you are completely correct in saying that prop trading is NOT a gateway to more lucrative jobs in ibanking, analysis, consulting, or as a senior equity trader at a larger firm. While I had my short stint at my firm (which shall still remain nameless) it really did seem that the traders were there for lack of a better idea, and I’m glad I didn’t spend any more time there than necessary before I figured it all out. I’m an educated guy with a good degree from a good university and I’m just writing my experience off as a bit of a misadventure that lasted for a few weeks - that’s all.

     It really seems to me that the people on this forum who defend day trading are doing so because they have nothing else. Just because they are succeeding doesn’t mean that they can defend the indefensible! This line of work is not kosher by any means and the link that I posted earlier (SEC v. Tuco Trading) is testament to this fact since nearly all prop firms are in violation of the regulations set forth by the SEC. The only reason why the SEC hasn’t put a stop to all of this yet is because it’s knee deep in billions of dollars of mortgage fraud and doesn’t have time to chase up small firms.

     In the end I recommend everyone to use a little bit of common sense. Read what I, and Ben, have both said. Ben is completely right in his earlier statements about prop trading, and I feel that I have confirmed most of these accusations by spending some time with a prop firm.

     If it seems a bit sketchy, it probably is!

     If anyone has any questions I’ll try to answer them as best as I can.

     S.

258. 258 Gary Jul 8th, 2008 at 10:43 am

     Here’s a question -

     I am looking for a remote PROP firm that will allow for OPTION TRADING. This is how I began in the market, have made the most amount of $$, and would prefer to stay. I have interviewed with several groups who mention that they ‘will in the near future’ have option trading but I am holding out for the group who actually does it.
     Thanks again

259. 259 Mark Jul 9th, 2008 at 9:23 am

     I find it heartening that so any young people are trying to get into trading. One thing that does astound me is the level of bleating and gumption by would-be prop traders. We interview countless 20-25 year olds which we aim to back financially, all profess to a healthy appetite for risk yet none are willing to risk any of their own money. Come on guys, put your money where your mouth is! The reasons always amuse me:

     1. I don’t trust you (but we have to trust you, a nobody, with our money)
     2. I’m not prepared to risk my own money (But you’re happy to throw mine around)

     Then there are the guys who knock the prop shops and this job, there’s usually a common theme to the background whining:

     1 the markets are much harder than x months/years ago (the market is the market, maybe its your trading style which doesn’t work anymore)
     2 all my P&L went in commissions ( you do realise that every time you click that screen it costs money right? Buying and selling at the same price 50 times won’t get you trader of the year. Go set up a retail account and see what your commissions will be like then)
     3 my split is too low (i didn’t realise prop shops should be more charitable and give you their share for using their capital)
     4 there was no training (OK fair cop, some places don’t do much to train you but 90% of the job is learnt the hard way. Senior traders usually do offer advice but they’re only ever going to tell you once. So many youngsters stare into the headlights and never learn from their mistakes.
     5 they “let” me lose money (so when the risk manager tells you to get out and conserve some capital, a really clever thing to do is tell said risk manager that it’s your money and you’ll do what you like with it. kudos)
     6. My limits/buying power/stop loss was too low (So basically if I had let you run that loser into the ground a bit more or let you double up again you would have been up money eventually???)

     To conclude if you don’t like the practices of prop shops, get a job working to rule and enjoy your 2 weeks paid holiday a year. So many want the lifestyle but don’t want to work hard nor take the financial risks to enjoy the privilege of coming and going when you like. If this job were that easy we’d alllllll be doing it.

260. 260 Roger Jul 9th, 2008 at 9:30 am

     Hi: I’m looking for a firm that trades futures. Any ideas? Been trading for a number of years and have a good record. Thanks!

     Roger

261. 261 Gary Jul 9th, 2008 at 1:09 pm

     Still looking for a prop firm (remote) that will allow for options trading… Any out there?

     Thanks in advance!

262. 262 kw Jul 9th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

     Just curious as to why you guys need a prop shop for options and futures? There is no 25k requirement like with stocks. To my knowledge, options are not marginable and futures are already highly leveraged as it is. As a remote trader, you wouldn’t be joining for the group dynamic. Without the need for leverage and/or comraderie, what is left? Perhaps there would be slightly lower commissions with a prop group volume discount, but that would easily be eclipsed by a less than 100% payout.

263. 263 Gary Jul 9th, 2008 at 7:40 pm

     Well I guess the reasoning is that options have premiums associated and if the underlying stock jumps .20 in the wrong direction - depending on your stake in the game - that could trigger a false sell (which adds up in fees AND gets you closer to a lockout). Lockouts are if you lose more than 5% of your original contribution in one day. This has happened to me numerously but like one wise-guy said ‘patience grasshopper’ - with options the price doesn’t move ALL the much in relation to the delta and the associated premium triggered by good ol’ fashion supply and demand. So if the stock jumps 5% in wrong direction - there you go - not much movement and enough time to get out of your position without much consequence.

264. 264 kw Jul 9th, 2008 at 10:55 pm

     I guess if you used them in combination with your stock trading it might make sense for protecting a position. I was only thinking of someone wanting to trade them exclusively. Thanks for the clarification.

265. 265 Roger Jul 9th, 2008 at 11:35 pm

     kw, thanks for the reply. I was under the impression (perhaps wrong) that there would be greater leverage as well as funds from the firm once a trader as proven their skill. I presume I am wrong?

266. 266 kw Jul 10th, 2008 at 6:47 pm

     Hi Roger,

     The issue with futures (in my opinion) is how much more margin can you really trade without the risk of ruin being so high that you never have a chance. As you probably know, there are retail brokers that will do $500 margins on the emini contracts. On the ES that is around 140 to 1. That is a ridiculous amount of rope to hang oneself with, even as an experienced trader. Even if you are successful with it, there is not much room to go lower than that with firm capital. I think that is why there are not many futures shops. The only ones I have ever heard of are places where the only way they want you trading is extremely high volume on a micro time frame so as to reduce the firm’s exposure while maximizing their commission revenue. As an experienced trader, you wouldn’t even be able to use your own methods. This is only anecdotal on my part, so perhaps there are other arrangements that I haven’t heard of. I just can’t think of a scenario where it would make sense for both firm and customer..er, I mean limited partner.

267. 267 JB Jul 10th, 2008 at 9:10 pm

     Babak what happened to you? I very much miss your market inputs, specially now. Please let us know when you are coming back.

268. 268 Roger Jul 10th, 2008 at 9:42 pm

     kw, thanks again for your reply.
     It’s not about margin, but equity. Right now I use $5K per lot trading the ES. I net about $1000-1500 per day consistently. I take a “salary” every Friday and I build my main account slowly. I thought perhaps a prop firm could increase my capitalization by allowing me to trade their funds for a percentage of the profits. As an private trader, there’s a limit as to how much exposure I want in the market at any one time, regardless how well I am doing on a day-to-day basis.
     I can certainly contribute to a prop firm to get started, but my goal was to trade their capital, in addition to my own.
     Perhaps I was mistaken as to how prop firms work.
     R.

269. 269 pimi Jul 11th, 2008 at 11:24 am

     im 18 and on a gap year in the UK, I intend to go to university next year, I want to become a proffesional trader or an investment banker in the future, i v been trading on online fantasy portofolios since I was 16 and I have become pretty good, I want to gain some more experience in my gap year, what is the best thing for me to do,
     any advice would be appreciated
     thank you

     ps, do proprietary firms take 18 year olds and train them
     thanks

270. 270 Guy Jul 18th, 2008 at 12:20 pm

     Good info here, thanks to all who have contributed.

     Just wanted to get solid list of shops that have offices in CA. I do know of some,
     but figure someone would be able to add.

     Best,

271. 271 halligan Jul 18th, 2008 at 3:03 pm

     Mike and Michael who replied on 29 of june and 1st of July please give more info on prop you are talking about.

272. 272 dabney Jul 19th, 2008 at 11:15 am

     does anyone know of a good firm in the LA area?

273. 273 John Jul 21st, 2008 at 11:04 am

     Anyone know of Boston prop firms?

274. 274 Jimbo Jul 22nd, 2008 at 12:37 pm

     Does anyone have any information about the Angle Group? I had an interview there a couple of weeks ago and I don’t know what to think of them.

     I just sat there and watched them trade, and it didn’t seem to thrilling.

     Any information would be great. Thanks guys.

275. 275 Byron Jul 22nd, 2008 at 1:17 pm

     I’m not sure ‘thrilling’ is what you should be looking for in a professional trading environment. Methodical, dispassionate, calculating, and astute, yes, but thrilling implies the kind of emotional decision-making and bias that can get you in trouble and lead to blowups.

276. 276 mamuka Jul 25th, 2008 at 5:32 pm

     Hi everyone, I can really sue some help or advise, so if anyone cad do this I will appreciate it a lot, during a year I traded in, my country (republic of Georgia) Euribor futures, but it’s closed few month ago, I just came to US, right now I’m California, near San Francisco, and I really want to get a job somewhere here with a normal company who will sponsorship me as well, I’m really dedicated and want to learn as much as possible,I’m ready to go through any training,and I can learn quite fast, who will sponsorship me as well, so if any one can help me or have any idea what I can do, will be very thankful.
     Thank you.

277. 277 Fanny Aug 1st, 2008 at 2:35 pm

     Do anybody know about Trade Alpha Corporate Ltd? Is it company under Hold Brother?

278. 278 Jason Aug 4th, 2008 at 2:28 am

     I am looking into trading with TCA Markets. Does anybody have any information that you feel that I should know about them before jumping in? thanx a bunch.

279. 279 mike Aug 8th, 2008 at 10:41 pm

     Hey there all,

     When they say zero capital contribution, does that include the technology and trading equipment as well? Do companies also teach people from a different state while that person is at home?

280. 280 JB Aug 11th, 2008 at 2:49 pm

     Babak, You were right on POT. Sure miss your comments.

281. 281 mark mendoza Aug 19th, 2008 at 5:05 am

     has anyone looked into this list of prop firms? ive got my eye on www.cygrouponline.com and asent and valdez captial — ive got some buddies in each and have been hearing good things about cygrouponline.com was wondering if anyone has had any first had experience with any of the above mentioned. i travel alot so remote trading is a must

282. 282 John Aug 24th, 2008 at 2:52 pm

     Anyone on here work for Marex in London? Also do they have an office in Chicago anymore, or did they shut that down when Refco was closed?

283. 283 JB Aug 25th, 2008 at 10:01 am

     Babak are you back or is this coment on real estate is someone else?

284. 284 JB Aug 25th, 2008 at 10:21 pm

     Babak welcome back.

285. 285 gman Aug 27th, 2008 at 11:12 pm

     hey Ronnie,
     I work at that office. Its good
     You can look them up at the website and give them a call

286. 286 Ronnie Aug 28th, 2008 at 9:32 am

     Cheers Gman,

     Whats your email? I would mind asking you a few more questions.

287. 287 Manny Aug 29th, 2008 at 12:01 am

     Is this a list of the prop trading firms in Chicago?

288. 288 Babak Aug 29th, 2008 at 1:49 am

     Thanks JB

     Manny, there are certainly firms with offices in Chicago. I’m working on a way to make the database more granular so things like location are easier to filter.

289. 289 gman Aug 31st, 2008 at 2:59 pm

     ronnie
     its gaga888@rocketmail.com

290. 290 Ams Sep 5th, 2008 at 2:24 am

     Hi,

     Grear Blog!

     I would really appreciate it if anyone could let me know of any trading arcades you are aware of in the toronto region?

     If there are any what is the set up? Do they provide the funds? Or, do you have to back yourself?

291. 291 Alexander Sep 12th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

     hi Babak, great forum! Could you advice me on remote prop shop with 0 start capital?

292. 292 louis Sep 13th, 2008 at 10:36 am

     i clicked on the link for nexis capital, the website was up a few months ago, is there and updated web address? are they located in new york?

293. 293 Albert Sep 18th, 2008 at 10:07 am

     HELLO, I need help . I was offer a Job at NEXIS in new york. I had to give them
     5K for the training which is going to take like 2 moths. They offer 85% comission
     and 15% for them. I am not an experienced trader. I have trade on my own but nothing serious. I really appreciate an opinion the as soon as possible. I am very confused. Should I
     go with them or not? For me it is really a big effort to give them 5k and I am confused
     wether I wil generate some money in three months. PLEASE HELP…

294. 294 MB Sep 18th, 2008 at 5:40 pm

     Albert,

     If 5,000 is a lot, do not risk it. Attempt to find a firm that requires no initial contribution. If your new, your also going to get burned, so be patient.

295. 295 Babak Sep 18th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

     Albert, first of all, what exactly does the training entail? who will be teaching you? what will they be teaching you? There are many prop firms which offer training but do not charge for it. What you need to figure out is if NEXIS’ training is worth $5000? or are you referring to the $5000 as the deposit/contribution to open an account with them?
     re the 85/15 I think you mean to say that this is the way trading profits will be shared but that is not the “commission”. what is the commission? any other fees? desk fee? data? etc.?
     It sounds like you need to get some more basic facts and figure out what is what. Either that or you haven’t clearly stated the situation in your message.

296. 296 Albert Sep 18th, 2008 at 9:52 pm

     Thanks MB and Babak for your response. They ask for 5K for training. Which he said will
     take
     around 8 weeks. The teachers of this program wil be a guy that has 25 years experienced
     in trading and worked for some big financial institutions. Yes the sharing profit is
     85%/15%. I heard a lot of negative things for NEXIS in here. I just can not afford to loose
     money and I want to make a clever decision. There is no desk fee. If I need a special
     program I have to pay it each month around $97 per month. For me 5k is alot of money
     and I cant loose money. What is your personal opinion?

     Thanks for your patience,

     Albert.

297. 297 Babak Sep 18th, 2008 at 10:04 pm

     did you look at what else is out there? talk to other prop firms? compare the deals? why have you narrowed it down to Nexis?

298. 298 Ben Sep 19th, 2008 at 12:57 am

     Albert, my man. There are many posts about nexxis on this forum. Clearly, you didn’t see them so I will summarize for you. DO NOT put your 5000k !!!!! PLEASE, let me do you this big favor. You will never see them again…NEVER!!! These guys have a decent training but they also encourage you to trade a lot…guess why??…because they’ll charge you such high commissions that you’ll start digging your own hole…and this is so at the end of each month, your NET will be negative even if you gross a lot of money. Forget about the 85% bull@S%it…you’ll never get 85% because the guys will be telling you that you owe them about 30K after 4months…and this is because they will charge 10 dollars per 1000 shares. Trust me…these guys are professional actors. In my class of about 30 guys, about 15 put down money and ZERO got anything back…including me!! Do yourself a favor and if you want to trade for one of this firms, then look for one with NO capital contribution. By the way, I think Nexxis is called now T3. anyway, same guys with the same old story. DON’T TRUST THEM. they give some really nice speeches to entice you.

299. 299 B4banko Sep 19th, 2008 at 2:08 pm

     I have spent the last 3 days going through the list provided above. I have read the entire blog. I am a self taught trader 3 1/2 years. If you are currently working for one of these firms I would like to know. I have the desire & need to find a reputable firm. From what I understand Canadian firms bypass the licensing process. I have a family to support & I am too old to chase carrots. Please contact me if you can provide insightful firsthand information that will trim the learning curve. Thank You. b4banko@gmail.com

300. 300 robber Sep 20th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

     whats the deal with first new york securities? anyone worked there?

301. 301 Shane Sep 20th, 2008 at 10:16 pm

     Hello -

     So Ben - are you saying that T3 is not a good firm them? I am confused. There are subscription fees to joining T3 and it seems as if people are successful.

302. 302 Albert Sep 21st, 2008 at 1:52 pm

     Hi, I need to know if someone knows a proprietary trading shop in New York City,
     that I dont have to give any Money to join and also that you can recommend that its
     trustworthy.

     Thank You.

303. 303 J Sep 30th, 2008 at 2:28 pm

     Has anyone heard of Xerxes Trading, located in Morristown, NJ? They are associated with Hold Brothers. They want a 5k cap contribution, claim to have about 15 traders, and they say they have “end of the day mentoring”…. not sure what to make of them, I would love to hear any feedback. Thanks.

304. 304 B4banko Sep 30th, 2008 at 3:16 pm

     J

     I have yet to see a response to a question like yours. I am looking for one who does not want your money. I see no need to give them mine when I can trade at a 10-1 margin to start with out the Series 7. I have an account & trade my personal funds with these guys.
     http://www.worldwidetradingcapital.com/
     Let me know if you come by one.

305. 305 B4banko Oct 2nd, 2008 at 4:32 pm

     Dean,
     Did they require your series 7 & a deposit?

306. 306 J Oct 7th, 2008 at 3:38 pm

     I noticed a previous post about the angle group…. do they actually require a
     $3k payment in order to start training? Has anyone gotten a job with them? Any idea of how competitive the application process is? Thanks again.

307. 307 pimi Oct 7th, 2008 at 3:42 pm

     i made £63000 today hoorray, just orderd a new ferrari

308. 308 Dee Oct 14th, 2008 at 4:52 pm

     Is there a company/firm to whom you can offer a winning strategy that would assess it, trade it and give you a percentage? (Collective2 is not what I have in mind.)

     I cannot trade it through retail for reasons of size and access to financial instruments.

     tia

309. 309 Trader Oct 14th, 2008 at 5:19 pm

     Pimi,

     What do you trade?

310. 310 B4banko Oct 14th, 2008 at 5:39 pm

     Dee

     Yes. You will have to go through the list provided above. I recall reading specifically a firm who stated that they will. I can’t remember who it was, I think it is in the first half of the list.

311. 311 Jason Oct 15th, 2008 at 1:09 am

     I need help! I had the trading experience on my personal account and I want to be a prop trader. But to be honest, I want to get into the large companies like hedge funds which provides the prop trader the salary and bonus. Do you know what is the best way to get into hedge fund? I am not from Ivey colleges but I do have confidence in my trading. Suppose I get into this kind of prop trading firms first, do a great job and have a great trading record, then I apply for those real prop trader positions in hedge fund, will it work?? Many thanks.

312. 312 BL Oct 17th, 2008 at 5:49 pm

     Hey everyone, after reading through this whole post, it’s been real eye-opening. I’m in contact with a relatively unknown prop shop (it’s not on the list) and I’m considering an interview with them. Here’s what they told me so far:
     -There’s a profit split with no personal capital contribution or desk fees
     -I will have to pay a couple grand for the training program and the training is “continuous” (ie. hands on training as you trade compared to training first then trade)
     -No Series 7 required
     -Didn’t mention commission per share or trade (can someone clarify that as I’m not familiar with it)
     -Some kind of special box technology (what is that?)
     -Will be able to begin trading immediately

     As for myself I’m a recent undergrad with a major in finance (talk about timing) Did some paper trading of equities for one class. In another class, traded currencies, options & futures using simulators and did fairly well. But I don’t even have the money to pay for this training. What do guys think?

313. 313 J Oct 24th, 2008 at 12:38 am

     Hi, just as a heads up, I’ve interviewed around in NY prop firms and I have yet to meet anyone making more than a few hundred dollars per month. Everyone has sidejobs as bartenders and waiters… not a glorious life… MANY people have been doing this for two years and have yet to pay the rent from it. Anyone who’s heard differently, I’d love to know your experience.

314. 314 Michael Oct 31st, 2008 at 12:28 am

     Hey all,
     Its me, the same Michael that posted about 6 months ago about the amount of negativity on this board towards day trading. I never responded about the firm I worked for because i didnt want it getting back to others at the firm. So I was working at Chimera since last November. Last friday I was “fired” or “laid off”, after a serious disagreement with one of the partners. explanation not necessary, but Chimera is a great firm for a starting trader. They do not do extensive training, it is really about experience. They have offices in LA boston and NY and are subs of Assent. Assent in my opinion has the best trading platform (anvil) and that really is a big part of it. So anyways since I last posted,

     I have been putting up sick numbers (for my size and experience) and have been able to save upwards of 20+k and pay off all my debts all from September trading. Now my question is as follows. In order to be a “customer” of assent, I need a minimum of 30 K and my noncompete does not allow me to trade within 60 miles of boston (though noncompetes arent worth the paper they are printed on). Assent has a number of subs, and im planning to move to florida and try to work up enough to get started.

     I realize that there are firms that will give you 100 percent with low commissions out there, but I do not have a series seven, and ANVIL is a GREAT trading platform.

     I know theres a ton of opportunity out there for someone in my position, A proven trading track record (54k sep though I keep about 25% after taxes). During october I have taken a shot at trading options on my ameritrade account and have been extremely profitable, its probably just luck though.

     So my question is this. Should I stick to equities or is there more money in futures, currencies, options etc.?

     Does anyone know any trading platforms that are very good and rival Assent’s Anvil?

     Any opportunity for commissions LESS then 4$ per thousand shares (what I was paying).

     Also can I collect unemployment while trading prop? as a customer?

     Any ideas are very much appreciated, and specific firms would be a huge help…

     Willing to move, change company, security, remote or office… etc. Theres a world of potential and i dont want to miss it… what do you guys think?

315. 315 Re Oct 31st, 2008 at 11:14 pm

     Micheal , if you got 30K why not trade for your self using lightspeed or something..
     You want to be a “customer” of assent , and need an LLC to become a sub..

     Maybe I can help…

316. 316 B4banko Nov 1st, 2008 at 3:22 pm

     Michael,
     If you have your own cash I see no advantage in using a prop shop. I don’t know why anyone would give them their money & have it tied up for a year. & that is if they don’t decide to pop some sort of fee on you to get out of refunding it. I would only trade for one who is going to take you on with no deposit. They want to lure you under the pretense of low commissions? Add in the % they take & you will find commissions are less if you just pay it. I use a private capitol firm. I place my money in the account. I receive 10-1 margin to start. They will step it up under periodic reviews. You can trade equities as well as options. Options are at a lower margin rate. They charge 1.5% monthly or 18% anum on margin used. A minimum of $150 a month. An account requires a minimum of $2,500 to open. You pay for your platform. You can choose between Real Tick, Trading Screen or InstaQuote. You can choose a fee schedule per ticket or per share. Per share will vary depending on the route you choose as well as whether or not you are adding or depleting liquidity. If you are adding no fee. You can request your earnings be wired to you at any time & have it with in two days or less. Or any amount you have in the account. If you let the balance fall below $2,000 you have to add funds to bring it back up to $2,500 in order to trade. If you fall below $1,500 intra day they will liquidate positions to protect their exposure. You can hold 4 times BP over night. If you can get past the psychological dependence of using Anvil this may be a good route for you to consider. Remember Anvil doesn’t pull the trigger you do. If you have enough cash to fund an account I don’t think you are eligible for unemployment. Those benefits are designed for people who need it. If it is abused it may not be there one day for the people who really need it. It is an ethical issue you have to decide upon. For me when it comes to trading I have become a firm believer in karma. I don’t do anything that can interfere with being in the zone. If you are looking for trading futures I like AMP Trading. You can get Day Trading ES contracts for $400 per contract margin requirement. Ninja Trader Zen Fire platform is excellent. You can also trade options as well. You can make a lot of money fast trading futures & options but you will also loose it even faster. If you are trying to build a foundation to support your career as a professional trader I would NOT swing for the fences by jumping into options & futures. You will blow up your account. I did it three times before I figured it out. Take it slow & steady with base hits every day. Trade the etf’s they most likely will not be halted & offer more stability in building a base. When using high leverage all you need is to pull out of the market 1-2 percent a day consistently. Set your daily goal & walk away when you reach it. Over trade & your batting average will go down. Once you have a foundation beneath you then branch off slowly into futures & options. Approach it the same way & build a good base for this division of your business. When doing something it is better to be excellent at one thing then just good at many. You do not need a series 7 for any of the things I have spoke of.
     Who I use for stocks & options.
     http://www.worldwidetradingcapital.com/
     Futures & Forex
     http://www.ampfutures.com/index.php
     This guy you can get a free trial to his nightly video on individual issues. Momentum trading. Very good. He may extend the service free if you are strapped for cash. He will also talk with you on phone to help you.
     http://www.davelandry.com/
     This guy does a lot of options trading & is good & free.
     http://slopeofhope.com/
     This guy does a nightly video on ES & other misc. instruments. To get the access to videos it is a small donation for a years worth. (gold status) Many threads that are great places to learn.
     http://www.tickerforum.org/cgi-ticker/akcs-www
     This is great charting software to download free. If you IM the support dept & ask a few questions ie watch lists, paper money etc. & work your way into telling them you are funding an account with in the next few days & ask if it would be possible to take the delay off they will.
     http://www.thinkorswim.com/tos/client/index.jsp
     They have frequent options & tools webinars in addition to access to archived past presentations.
     This guy is good for FAST paced day trading. Has a intra day update recording.
     http://icecoldstocks.com/toolbar.html
     Hope this helps. If you find someplace that will let you trade remote w/ no series 7 & no deposit let me know. I would be interested. I am always eager to increase my earnings potential. I have had no luck. I suspect the business model is designed to make their money off your deposit. Starts & stops right there. It is interesting that your relationship ended when you became profitable. That is not supposed to happen.

317. 317 Leah Nov 1st, 2008 at 5:58 pm

     B4Banko - YOU seriously rock. Best post on here so far.

318. 318 B4banko Nov 1st, 2008 at 9:21 pm

     Leah
     Thank You. I have poured my heart & soul into becoming a successful trader. It is not easy. It is the single most difficult challenge I have encountered as a career choice. I have been in numerous burning buildings, pulled mangled bodies from cars, dug ditches in 120 degree heat & built 10,000 sq.’ homes. None of those things is remotely as difficult as trading. If only I could have read a post like that & LISTENED & learned when I was starting out I would have had avoided many unpleasant experiences & would have a whole lot more money in my pocket today. This is a good book to read. Mastering The Trade by John Carter.

319. 319 Michael Nov 2nd, 2008 at 12:37 am

     Dude.
     B4banko,
     You are the f’in man. That was the single most comprehensive and efficient list of reliable resources. Since I dont want to branch out into other securities until I have a good base going, I decided to stick with equities.

     I spoke with the guy from worldtrading, and the operation sounds legit. I think I am going to get involved with him.

     At this point i’m considering: worldwide trading capital, cy group, sterling, flatiron trading, and assent. And in that regard you’re totally right, I have been at it for only a year and it shouldnt be such a hurtle to overcome mastering a differently platform then anvil, especially when it opens so many doors for better deals.

     I really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions.

     I too believe in trading karma. I would wish you the best, but its going to come your way whether I wish it or not, thus is the way of the world.

     Thankyou
     MICHAEL

320. 320 B4banko Nov 2nd, 2008 at 12:44 am

     Michael
     Don’t forget, if you find a no down prop shop let me know. Good to know it was useful.

321. 321 Aki Nov 2nd, 2008 at 3:31 am

     Hi Babak,

     My equity is from up $20,000 to minus $50,000 in the rough Oct..I lost confident totally on U.S.stocks.I don’t agree that the gov. get into the market.I hope I can find somewhere to trade LSE now.Coud you help to introduce some?

     Aki

322. 322 Dave Nov 3rd, 2008 at 2:00 pm

     Does anybody know anything about SMB Capital, LLC? Thanks.

323. 323 Babak Nov 3rd, 2008 at 3:56 pm

     Michael, congrats! it is always awesome to hear of traders success. re platform, I’ve heard good things re laser. and for cheaper rates, you can always negotiate something lower, try the prop subforum at elitetrader
     :)

324. 324 Fernando Nov 4th, 2008 at 7:34 pm

     Hey Everybody i found this post while i was browsing by some trading firms, and i have to say its awesome.

     First let me introduce my self. I been trading for a year now with Star Alliance Capital One. And i have to say that most of the stuff you guys write about this business is true. This business is hard and is not for everybody.

     I first started in October of 2007. I came with a group of about 15 people. And out of the 15 people only I am left. I started with $5,000 and i got 20-1 levarage(hence i got 100,000.00 of buying power). With a risk management in place. I was able to trade a max of 300 shares and able to hold 3 positions any time(so the most at any given time i had was 900 shares). But even with that risk management i lost my money in the first 3 months.

     After that i was ask to bring another $5,000 if i wanted to continue trading, and i did and i lost that too. At this time I was mad, but i felt like my trading skills had improved a lot but i had to manage better my losses.

     The third time it seem to had turn around and like they say third time is the charm. I was finnally able to get it right with my next $5,000. and it was this point of my trading career that i was able to see clearly what i had been doing wrong all this time and what most people fail to see. And i will discuss that in the next 3 bullets

     1. You have to loose to be able to learn. When i first came here i came with the mentality of making fast money. But that’s the first mistake i did and a lot of people do when they start this business. This business is like going to school. You have to study and learn. and when you go to school you have to pay to learn a carrear. Likewise in Day trading. You learn how to trade with the money you put in (loose). And this “Tuition” is what will teach the trading mechanism of wall street and the emotions and psychological effort it take to do this. It will help you decide if you like this field and weather you will continue or move on to another career.

     2. There is no holy grial: Black boxes, indicators, analyst and all that fancy technical analysis are worthless in Day trading. They might work for a little bit of time, but most of the other time they will be wrong, or too late. I tried all this during my first months. Stochastic Oscilator, RSI, Bollinger Bands, listening to CNBC Jim Cramer and all those guys in there, but it did nothing but genarate some wins and big loss.

     3. I had wrong ratios. I would get in a trade risking and loosing 10 cents, to make the next trade a 10 cent winner. This generated little and never gave me any good profits.

     So at my one year of trading i have learn a lot and what a lot of people fail to see. This is not a fast get rich quick scheme. It takes time. Some might take them a couple of month, some a year and some even more. But this business its what you make out of it.

     The only thing that works in this businss is these 3 little thing. And these 3 little things are the traders secreat and what many do not understands.
     1. Support and Resistance.
     2. Cut your looses.
     3. Discipline
     These are the only thing that works in this business. It’s what helps you stay alive in this business, and it’s what helps you make money in this business.

     Sure it looks so simple and easy, but thats all you really need. It takes time, it took me close to about a year to learn from all my suferring, but it was worth it. Now I am able to make easily 500 or more a day. And usually i make this in the first hour of trading. So by 11 am I am done with some money in my pocket that takes people working for a corporation to make in 2 or 3 days.

     So do you loose money? hell yeah. But is it worth it? hell yeah.

     Any questions guys you can write to me at my e-mail: stalyn.murillo@gmail.com
     I can discuss more about my experience, my trading strategy, and what ever you like.

     Have a good day,
     Fernando

325. 325 Byron Nov 4th, 2008 at 9:01 pm

     B4Banko and Fernando, thanks for the excellent information, much appreciated! I also /second Tickerforum.org. A collection of some of the most savy and thoughtful traders & investors you can possibly find in the public domain.

326. 326 Dave Nov 5th, 2008 at 10:30 am

     Does anybody know anything about SMB Capital or have any experiences to share?

327. 327 Benoit Desjardins Nov 7th, 2008 at 4:14 pm

     Hi,

     Do you have anything in Poland?

328. 328 Babak Nov 11th, 2008 at 12:15 am

     Dave, the most recent edition of Bloomberg magazine has a short article about them. The founders are Steve Spencer and Mike Bellafire, both 37. The firm gets the name from their initials. They used to trade at Heartland before striking out on their own.
     The firm started in 2006 with 4 traders. They use Lightspeed and have a manual which is 20 pages long and 7500 words. They were also featured in Wall St. Warriors.

329. 329 Fernando Nov 11th, 2008 at 2:36 pm

     I had a lot of people writing to me and asking me question about support and resistance, cutting looses, ratios, and discipline. So i wanted to make a note about support and resistance in this post.

     Support and resistance…it’s where it holds…it can be the digit, previous days highs, low, open, close, or just about anywhere.

     I use previous day’s highs, lows, close, and open. These 4 tend to act as support and resistance a lot.

     Once I have these previous days support and resistance, I want to see how they react to it. You can short right at the pivot point if you’re a risky trader, but I recommend averaging in around the pivot point or just wait and see how it reacts till you like what you see. For me, I might see the market come to a pivot point, break the pivot point and then come down to the pivot point. It will start to hold and not make a new high. Once I see the market not making a new high and moving below the pivot point I will consider shorting my stock. When I do this I have to see where my stock is at. Is at a previous day high, low, open, or close? If it’s at any of these pivot point then it’s great. I will try to short around the pivot point and risk to loose a bit more then the high. To illustrate, if the stock made a high of 24.67 and it’s holding at its previous day open of 24.59 I will short around the pivot point, and risk to loose if it breaks the high. This works great in conjunction with the market.

     Besides the previous days high, low, open, close you can also use the digit and half digit as support and resistance. If a stock is rallying it might take a break close to the digit. For example, if a stock started to rally around 42.20 it might take hold when it reaches 43. Why is that? Because people who bought at the bottom will use the digit as a point to get in and out of a trade, weather it is to take a profit/lose or initiate a position. So you as a day trader want to benefit from this move, weather it’s a 30 cent move or more. If you like shorting you want to see how the stock holds and reacts when it gets to the digit. If it does not brakes digit and start to hold around there, then it might be a good time to short. But if you short around 42.90’s and it breaks the high (lets just put a high of 42.97), you can either hold for a couple more cents to see how it reacts or get out. Because a stock sometimes will try to shake you out. They would do that by spiking it up above the resistance and bringing it down.

     There are more support and resistance that you can find. All you have to do is look at the previous day of the stock you’re trading and look at the points where the stock holds for a while. Draw them to today and see how the stock reacts when it comes to that point. (They key here is to see how it reacts to that support or resistance)

     Of course it does not work all the time, and that’s when discipline comes in, and cutting those loses fast. You have to remember that if you are loosing more then your average loss is best to get out, because you can always get back in.

     Being a trader takes time. It took me a couple of month to perfect this technique. But you choose what technique you like the best, a momentum, trend, scalper, reversal trader or whatever. Stick to what best works for you, stick to your discipline and take it easy.

     Fernando
     stalyn.murillo@gmail.com

330. 330 Miguel Nov 11th, 2008 at 3:07 pm

     Great post on support and resistance. One thing I think you didnt stress enough.
     Don’t fall in love with the play. Just because a play may have much more upside then downside, doesnt mean it has any better chance of following through.
     How I get into my breakout.
     1. Establish 1/4 position at pivot point, usually whole number or half/quarter in my opinion work best…
     2.If there is a break scoop up another 1/2 full position,
     if it doesnt, get out of your small position fast (5 or 10 cents).
     3. If it continues to follow through, stay nimble moving in and out with your last 1/4 position… Always taking profit. However if the stock moves against you past your average price get out of half, if it goes another 5 or 10 cents, depending on stock.
     Never become too committed to a stock that the liquidity does not support, and be quick to admit when you are wrong, because overall using this strategy there is a market edge, and you can exploit it by sizing in as it goes in your favor.
     If you use proper position management you will be profitable, however since this is a high intensity trading strategy, minimal commission structure is necessary.
     I’m going a step further at this point and using options as a way to leverage using pivot points on an intraday basis. Going well so far!

     Good luck everyone,
     Miguel

331. 331 Fernando Nov 11th, 2008 at 5:03 pm

     Nice tactic. I see some guys using that technique as well in my office.

     And options is great. I started doing them last week.

     I think another technique is to do the opposite of what CNBC is doing. lol.

     I remember when i started trading, Fast Money was saying to buy Las Vegas Sand. People bought it at the top…and look where is at. I don’t know how can those people be called professionals and still be there…oh and don’t forget Cramer calling market bottom at 10,000 a couple of months ago…

     Read some good books instead of relying on other people to do your job. These 2 books are my favorites: Reminiscences of a Stock Operator by Edwin Lefèvre and Japanese Candlestick Charting Techniques by Steve Nison. They are the best I ever read. If anybody has good books like this let me know so i can read some.

332. 332 William Nov 11th, 2008 at 6:24 pm

     “Timing the Trade” - Tom O’Brien. You being a pro daytrader, this might be too basic.

     He is a day-trader
     One-way ticket yeah
     It took him nooo time…
     To get out…he got out

     (My writing hobbies are poetry and lyric revision to fit the moment!)

333. 333 Fernando Nov 12th, 2008 at 12:36 am

     Thanks bro, I’ll check it out. But still to my best knowledge, Reminiscences of a Stock Operator by Edwin Lefèvre is the best book on stock market out there and no trader should be with out it…until i find something better!

     Jesse Livermore is one of the greatest traders i ever heard of, and his main rules where the simple ones i told you guys: Support and Resistance, Cut your Losses, and Discipline.

334. 334 William Nov 12th, 2008 at 1:22 am

     I’ve never heard of those guys. Are they all day traders? I’m not in that realm at all.
     I trade with my mentor Phil Grande. His prop software, X-1 and X2, are so simple for swing and position traders to use. And its all about S and R, Vol and slo stoch. These indicators are directly tied to institutional money movement. I notice the S and R prices don’t exactly match fib ratios, but most always have less than $1 variance.

     In class, in this day trader’s market, of course, he uses a 15min chart and bollinger bands to exact buy and sell points. I just look over his shoulder. I don’t have a margin acct yet, so I can’t short the market. But, I participate in the long trades….and options. I’m pretty much a rookie. I’m glad to find this “coffee shop” and hang out with you guys. I’d never heard of prop trading before. Don’t think I’d enjoy being in a barn with 100 stations. Like…do you have hotties walking by every now and then to feel your humanity? (grin).

335. 335 Fernando Nov 12th, 2008 at 5:42 pm

     Oh and I wanted to add one last thing. Know that you guys know about support and resistance use it. For the stock, for the market and for what ever you are trading.
     You will come to your own conclusions and most of the time will be right. You will no longer have to rely on all those anal-list at CNBC telling you a bunch of BS. i.e: they are calling market bottom at 8000…

     Look up a monthly chart of the Dow Jones, and you will see that there is support all the way around the 7000-7400 level. There is more of a likely chance that market is trying to push to those levels to test that support.

     For me I been shorting my ass of on as many stocks I can, and bought a bunch of puts after elections day because I did not buy that fake rally. And I’ll be shorting all the way till 7400 (if it gets there ). I want that level! I want to see how market reacts when it gets to that level before I start buying anything in my portfolio.

     Always remember that the key is to see how the market reacts to a support or resistance. You can do that by throwing in shares and testing that lvl, or just wait and see.

336. 336 spamula Nov 16th, 2008 at 1:28 am

     Guys I;m looking for and a firm to provide me with 20.1 buying power and low price comissions around 0.003-0.005 does anyone know someone with a good rep who can help me?

337. 337 Matt D Nov 19th, 2008 at 12:08 pm

     Spamula

     We trade in-house here with Flat Iron trading, everyone pretty much gets a .0025/90% payout. You can give them a shot, believe their site is flatirontrading.com, best of luck.

338. 338 spamula Nov 19th, 2008 at 12:21 pm

     Matt how much for the software did they quote, thinking of going there or cygroup but
     cygroup favorite. 98%, 0.005 to start going down to 0.003 providu do so much trading

339. 339 Fernando Nov 20th, 2008 at 10:16 am

     Yes market is getting to the level i want (7400)! If it goes like i have talk about, today might be the bottom…

     I’ll cover all my shorts today today and maybe go long…depending how the market reacts when it gets to those levels today!

     Like I said do your own analysis and most of the time you will be right, while the “so called” professionals at CNBC will be wrong!

340. 340 Fernando Nov 21st, 2008 at 4:21 pm

     follow up on my post! Yes the market got to my level i wanted today..cover all my positions and went long. and bought a couple of calls! I’m still kinda not sure about this bottom set today…it might be for a couple of weeks, cause there is still more bad news to come, so this long and rally might be till 10,000. after that if it gets there i will see how it holds!

     But this market is all about levels. It got to the level i wanted and hold there…but still i say this play is short term cause there is more bad news to come out (hence market can come lower then today)!

341. 341 B4banko Nov 21st, 2008 at 5:05 pm

     Fernando,
     Nice job on your trading. Do you think you could post your trades in real time verses stating it after the fact? I think many would find that helpful.

342. 342 Fernando Nov 21st, 2008 at 5:29 pm

     ok will try my best to do it..its very hard to write when you see something in the market! When you see it you have to be fast, to get the best price you can!

     I’m no market Guru like CNBC (if you buy their BS) but I’m just trying to tell people that is best if you learn how to read a chart, instead of relying on other people. I’m just giving you my feels for the market and the trades i done (I put my money where my mouth is).

     But still we will have to see how the market reacts the next few days… We still have to deal with Credit Cards problem, and inflation…so there is more of likely chance that market will come down again after it has rally for a couple of days.

     And if you want real time you going to have to come to my firm!

343. 343 B4banko Nov 21st, 2008 at 5:32 pm

     Fish On!!!

344. 344 MQ Nov 26th, 2008 at 7:47 am

     Hi guys

     Can you help me with two questions please?

     1. I’m looking to get into trading but wonder if my age will work against me. I am 31 years old now and currently working as a Financial Adviser in the City (London). So I have a lot of experience with investments and markets but not as a trader, although obvisouly I look at the markets a lot and spreadbet.

     I never thought I was the right personality type to become a trader (and the careers adviser at university advised me against a career in trading which I stupidly took) however I have recently become friends with a trader who works for Marex and he has changed my opinion totally.

     2. If it is possible for me, where what type of firm would you suggest to contact? I would ask my friend but he is quite stressed at the moment so not good timing!

     Thank you

     Mark

345. 345 Fernando Nov 26th, 2008 at 10:02 am

     Your an analist? If you are you will find it hard to comprehend cause you have that same mentality of those at CNBC. If you want to try it, you have to forget about everything you know! Yes forget everything you know because it does not helps in Day Trading!

     You will start from scratch and take it from there. Since i Don’t BS i tell you the truth like it is. When you start there is 95% chance that you will loose the money you put in. You have to learn how to trade, so this money will be you small “investment” to learn how to. All you really need is 5,000. Control that money and don’t get out of hand by trying to be a big guy and doing a lot of shares. Start small and take it easy.

     Read some books on your journey. Some good books to read: Reminiscences of a Stock Operator by Edwin Lefèvre and Japanese Candlestick Charting Techniques by Steve Nison.

346. 346 Fernando Nov 26th, 2008 at 10:05 am

     oh and read one of my post starting from Nov 4th, 2008 and see if that helps you figure out if you like this or not!

     Let me know how it goes!

347. 347 MQ Nov 26th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

     Hi Fernando

     Thank you for your reply.

     Do you think age is important because I have heard from some people that many traders burn out by their early thirties?

     Mark

348. 348 Fernando Nov 28th, 2008 at 9:59 am

     uhmmm that depends…Do you have a family? If you do, having family and starting this is very hard, because you will not be making any money at the beginning!
     Also because of age, you might be a bit more naive in the learning process….because you went to this college, you feel this is ridiculous, or you work at such a firm and that is unacceptable. Stuff like that.

     Another issue by a lot of people is salary. We don’t work for nobody, but ourselves. Making this our business, where we don’t expect t a weekly salary, but working for our own money. You don’t have somebody telling you what to do. Nobody tells you to press the button but you, making it more complicated for people who are use to be told what to do..they want “structure”.

     But if you are able to look past all this stuff and start like a young teenager that does not know nothing then you will start good…I have to say when i started i did not know nothing. Absolutely nothing….at the interview they asked me what made stocks go up or down and i said exports and imports…how pitiful of myself. lol. But that is just one example of how little you have to know, to start this business. You will learn as you start!

     And we do have an analyst amongst our ranks…he was a brokerage for 12 years (analyst, brokerage..they are all the same). When he started he lost money just like all of us. Took him close to a year to be able to understand this a bit, and start making money. I asked him if it was easier for him because he was a brokerage? and he said no. He said Day trading is a whole different ball game. Nothing of what he used as brokerage really helped him out.

     So my friend, the journey is tough, but if you like the stock market, and are able to understand this after a while, the possibility are endless. But if you like working for the man, then this business is not for you.

349. 349 proptrader Nov 29th, 2008 at 2:34 am

     Age can definitely be an issue. Most of the guys I see becoming successful are under thirty.

350. 350 StevenK Nov 29th, 2008 at 3:02 am

     I would like to say something constructive about this world of Prop trading firms….If there are levels to entering the world as traders then Prop trading would be at the bottom. So while going to work for goldman might be at the top most will never have that opportunity. Becoming a professional trader is a great job and ranks with being a heart surgeon or brain surgeon and whether you have a retail account or a prop trading account it won’t matter. Because the odds of becoming a professional trader are only a little better than becoming a heart surgeon or brain surgeon. But if the only way you can get on board is to spend years at several trading firms losing to learn then so be it. As long as you know the odds are against you. I remember in the 80’s when we had to make money paying 300 dollar commissions. So all the talk of fees and commissions is hysterical. Commissions are basically free in my mind. I wish that I had had an offer from Goldman in 2000 and retired in 2006 (missing Goldmans recent demise) but I didn’t . So I have spent the cost of a private education at a four year University to get to where I am today. Not a Brain or Heart surgeon but I will make more money longer without all of the malpractice….So to all you your turks (what I was when I started in 1981) theres no free lunch. You will pay for your education Life is a risk. Just remember trading is a learned skill which most anyone can learn. It is no different than being a pilot or surgeon or computer programmer both in time to get to the top and cost. The great thing about trading is that anyone can have there shot if they want it….What few can do pays very very well.

351. 351 donnys12 Nov 29th, 2008 at 1:14 pm

     desperately looking to trade. I have traded my own brokerage account for about 7 years with no real success. I recently took a one on one course witha CBOT veteran who teaches privately. I want to trade at a firm full time, but am 38 and don’t know if any firm would give me a shot. I am committed to learning their ways and patient enough to know I wont be successful right away. can anyone put me in the right direction for a chicago firm to talk to?

352. 352 B4banko Nov 29th, 2008 at 4:58 pm

     donnys12

     Go through the list above & contact the ones who appeal to you. If you have your own cash that is all it takes. They don’t care how old, male, female, white, black or purple. They want your money & if you make it you do & if you don’t it was your nickel. I understand the prop trading business model to be a thing of the past. Due to deleveraging & credit lines being pulled. If you just learned a new methodology from a vet why do you need a firm? No money? You state you want to learn the ways of even another firm. After 7 years you should realize that the holy grail you are searching for does not exist. This is the “holy grail”, consistency. Trade a methodology consistently & you will make money. Bounce around for 7 years & you will loose money. There are many ways to make money & one way to loose. Unless you are consistently inconsistent. Then you have found the holy grail, just the wrong one. If you want leverage set up a personal account with, http://www.worldwidetradingcapital.com/ you can get 10-1. That is all you need to earn a respectable living.

353. 353 Fernando Nov 29th, 2008 at 7:24 pm

     Nice reply StevenK, and thanks for the website B4banko…
     Although i never asked for what i originally came here for…

     I was looking for a firm with lower commissions…yes StvenK commissions come a long way from your time, but still we are always looking for a better deal!

     My firm for Day trading gives a 20 to 1 leverage (For overnight positions you get a 4-1) charging you 80 cents per 100 shares and you are able to keep all your profits (They charge $2 per contract for options). They just take their commissions and what ever other fees you have to pay to the SEC and stuff like that. If you trade more then 10,000 a day then your commission can go lower to 60 cents, and lower as you trade more. They will also charge you $30 a month if you use their chats (I use esignal so i don’t pay for this) and another $30 if you want to be able to see ARCA quotes. Besides that if you want to trade remote you have to pay $75 a month.

     Now knowing whats the average i pay for my services i wanted to check my options with another firm. Lately i been remote a lot, so I want to look for a firm with a good remote system and with a good execution system. Last the firm must be able to let me keeps all my profit. It does not matter to me if a firm charges low commission but they take a certain percentage of my profits.

     So if anybody knows of anything good out there let me know. If not i guess this is the best for know.

354. 354 StevenK Nov 29th, 2008 at 8:23 pm

     Fernanco,,,,are you making a million a year???If not then you need to spend as much time on your craft than looking for lower commissions….I trade at tradestation (retail) and at VCM….Both are a dissappointment to some degree. Just as there is no edge that lasts forever somebody will have a better deal unfortunately it will take you 6 months to fiure it out…and then they will go bankrupt because each firm has to make a living…However you have yet to post which firm you trade with so the rest of us can compare…Are you a principal at this firm looking for recuits???

     StevenK

355. 355 B4banko Nov 29th, 2008 at 8:33 pm

     StevenK
     Fish on! They start dropping the hooks Friday afternoon & goes through the weekend. The place I use will give 20-1 after you prove your ability to handle the leverage. Every 2 weeks they evaluate you upon request & they will bump it up slowly.

356. 356 StevenK Nov 29th, 2008 at 8:44 pm

     B4Banko,

     did I address my comment to the wrong person…I am truly interested in the firm you are using….I still believe that most will go broke but it sounds like you have a good deal…Is there a reason you won’t share the name?

357. 357 B4banko Nov 29th, 2008 at 11:36 pm

     StevenK

     http://www.worldwidetradingcapital.com/
     This is who I use. A private capitol group is who they set my account up with, Schiller LLC, but you have to go through World Wide Trading Capitol. NWT Financial is the Broker Dealer. You trade your money, they fund the margin @ 1.5% monthly or 18% anum. There is a variety of fee structures you can chose from. As well as negotiating a deal based upon volume. You keep your profit. I calculated some of the fee structures on other firms & found that it is less expensive for me to trade this way. Particularly if you trade a more expensive stock FSLR for example. You trade fewer shares with your buying power than if you were trading the same dollar amount of XLF. Fees don’t really dictate my decision on what I trade. I would rather focus on being profitable. Fees are just the whip cream. I have no problem admitting that I have my days that it is straight whip cream on dog shit. If you don’t you are lying. I have no interest in these companies I just have a few accounts with them. I would trade with a prop firm if they put up the money, I have yet to encounter one who does.

358. 358 StevenK Nov 29th, 2008 at 11:47 pm

     B4banko,

     Thank you that is very helpful I will check them out…This may be a stupid question but do you pay that interest on intraday trades or just on trades you hold overnight?

359. 359 B4banko Nov 30th, 2008 at 2:13 pm

     StevenK
     Intraday, I don’t think overnight applies because the buying power drops to 4-1 overnight. The next trading day it bumps back up so it is calced by the higher #. They give 4-1 on options intraday as well.

360. 360 ty Dec 1st, 2008 at 1:31 am

     anyone know of any firms that have API’s that can hook up directly to tradestation? I have automated systems coded in tradestation and would love to trade them at a prop for the leverage. Are there any places that you dont have to put up any capital to start? That seems a little strange to me. Also, are there any that give you more line. Say I put up 5k and show some signs of doing well but then have a bad run and blow throughthe 5k. Will they allow me to keep trading or will they stop me and make me fund again right away?
     If anyone can knows the best places for the above ? let me know.
     thanks
     ty

361. 361 Fernando Dec 1st, 2008 at 10:20 am

     Yeah sorry i forgot to put down the website of the firm i use:
     http://staralliancecapital.com/

     They are under http://www.dimensionbrokerage.com/

     I just wanted to compare prices with other firms….since I’m planning to Day Trade from another country i wanted to make sure i had a good package…but looking from what you guys are talking about it seems i have a good one. So i guess no need to look any more.

     Alright guys thanks for the help.

362. 362 Gordon Gekko Dec 2nd, 2008 at 11:12 am

     Out of all these prop firms, would you say the top 3 that offer a salary and provide training are:

     1) Jane street
     2) SIG
     3) DRW

363. 363 Yiyun Dec 7th, 2008 at 9:19 am

     Hi,

     Thank you for the list. Maybe, you should add Saen options on the list.
     They are market makers based in Amsterdam.

     Thank you

364. 364 mark mendoza Dec 8th, 2008 at 7:37 am

     ending up joining with www.cygrouponline.com rates are good for volume traders, good benefits and easy cash withdrawls

     very fast platform via laser

     support is good/fast too

     anyone with them too? any feedback? — so far so good been in 4 months now

     they are good with n00bs too, i referred a few trader friends that are just starting out

365. 365 Al Dec 22nd, 2008 at 1:36 pm

     I like the list a lot!!!

     I’d appreciate a recommendation to:

     I am very interested in proprietary trading firms, which the main focus is swing or position trading.

366. 366 DOUG Dec 23rd, 2008 at 12:51 pm

     Next Level Trading is a scam. I traded with them and they are manipulating my trades. If you are a low volume trader like me, they will add shares to your trade position whenever you exit them. It’s keeps on adding up… it looks like they are watching your trades and they will mainpulate you once you liquidated your position especially if you are on the wrong side. It’s hard to explain, but that’s how I lost my capital with them. And their software program, the Blackwood Pro tech support are in collaboration with them. That’s what I found out on my personal findings. They are in constant coordination whenever you brought up your complains. Anyway, that’s a hard lesson for me. And their website keeps on changing, so be watchful with this Next Level Trading firm, you might suffer what I have gone through.

367. 367 Fernando Dec 23rd, 2008 at 2:18 pm

     Ah that sucks bro. I have heard that there are a lot of firms out there that push you to trade but not like this. If there is one firm i can vouch for is the one i am with http://staralliancecapital.com/

     They are under http://www.dimensionbrokerage.com/
     The good thing about them is that they don’t push you to trade a lot, because they have a lot of whales! a lot of rich guys that help to pay the bill!

     and no, I’m no recruit for staralliancecapitalone..and i don’t think they would like me as a recruit either cause i don’t BS. I will tell you straight up that if you are a rookie you will loose the money you put in. That your first year, you are there to learn, not to pay bills! sort of like my school view of paying your tuition!

368. 368 Fernando Dec 23rd, 2008 at 2:27 pm

     oh i forgot to say that my firm does use Blackwood Pro but in my year there i have never heard of a complaint like that! Your’s is the first. That firm is doing something illegal…

     And Blackwood Pro does sucks…well the charts thats it, the market maker is great. I don’t pay for the charts, as i use esignal

369. 369 rich Jan 5th, 2009 at 5:17 pm

     Experiene with world wide traders capital ? i spoke to firm 5k, ten leverage, 100percent payout. Platform intsaquote only.

370. 370 B4banko Jan 5th, 2009 at 5:30 pm

     I use them. I thought they also had Real Tick & one other that I can’t remember at the current time. Insta Quote is basic I use it to trade off of but I use Think or Swim for charting. Great service & have never had a problem getting my money. & that is something I am paranoid about.

371. 371 rich Jan 5th, 2009 at 6:56 pm

     Asked a question about this firm on elite trader response was proceed with caution. Did you receive payout s from this up to twice weekly? Is the firm good withlowering costs for large volume, and changing bp? Thankyou

372. 372 B4banko Jan 5th, 2009 at 7:20 pm

     If you would like to talk, email me with your # at proptrader10K@gmail.com. I will explain how they are setup so you have the complete picture.

373. 373 P Jan 6th, 2009 at 5:19 am

     Are there firms that help people who have a strategy but not alot of money?

374. 374 mark mendoza Jan 6th, 2009 at 1:06 pm

     P you are correct, prop firms allow you to test out your trading strategies with as little as 5k, most retail firms require 25k to day trade, but if you joing a prop firm such as www.cygrouponline.com — your risk capital is just 5k —

     im currently with cygrouponline.com so far so good, no complaints, live chat room, good support — you might want to check them out

     im looking for other people’s feedback on cygrouponline.com as well, please contribute any feedback/thoughts/advice/recommendations

     just wondering if there’s anything better

375. 375 Jtradeup Jan 6th, 2009 at 8:56 pm

     I have traded with few firms currently with Cy Group. I was kinda skeptical at first but its been over a year now and I am happy. Not happy with my trading but the level of support they offer was really unexpected. So many ways to contact them via chat, phone or messaging. Anyways guys know what they are doing they help me maximize my rebates by routing to weird ecns all the time but hey they save me money.I also like to pull out profits sometimes weekly Cy Group dont have issues. Done all online. Anyways i wanted to add my thoughts on title. traded with them for a while not bad either good competitive deals but didnt like their support on new traders. was almost non existent. I have also traded briefly with hold bros, not bad but so many fees and high rates. Software wasn’t so good either in my opinion.

376. 376 Rich Jan 7th, 2009 at 8:44 pm

     Ephiphany trading llc. in newyork. Anyone familiar with trhis firm?

377. 377 Arialle Jan 8th, 2009 at 1:02 am

     I spoke with them and was going to set up a demo account first to try them out. They seem the most upfront, honest, and legit.

378. 378 Brian Jan 8th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

     Kerschner Trading, all the traders at Kerschner Trading trade with one style - that is scalping.

379. 379 Chad Cohen Jan 13th, 2009 at 5:31 pm

     I am a recent college graduate from Chicago, looking for a runner or clerking position on the floor of the BOT. Does anyone know the best route to go about finding such a position. I am looking to eventually become a trader and want to start from the ground up.

     Thank You.

380. 380 Rich Jan 14th, 2009 at 2:53 am

     golden market management out of canada, I heard something positive about this firm recently. Anyone experienced with this firm?

381. 381 Josh Jan 14th, 2009 at 4:05 am

     A question for the veterans out there…..

     For the last year I have been trading a 20k account with lots of learning curves. Basically I have went from losing money, to breakeven, to losing, to breakeven, to now finally consistantly making about $100.00 a day - depending upon the week +/-. I recently graduated college and would like to trade fulltime for a living. The problem is however with the capital I have available to me. Without taking stupid risks 20k is not enough to fund my bills and make a living. I have applied recently to many of the prop firms above but would rather trade independently. Any suggestions about gathering more capital for someone with a short track record like myself? Would it be better to work at a prop shop for awhile to sharpen my skills? Most of the firms do not offer a salary, just capital, which will be a problem for me. Any feed back is welcome. Thanks

     Josh

382. 382 Josh Jan 14th, 2009 at 4:14 am

     Answer for Chad Cohen

     Chad,
     Times are changing for the floor. In 07′ I clerked on the floor at the Kansas City Board of Trade and things since then have changed a lot. The CBOT futures pits are virtually dead (outside of the options pits), meaning all of the trading volume is now done via electrionic exchange and not open outcry anymore. I am not trying to ruin your hopes of getting a clerk position on the floor trust me. My original plans after college were to work my way up the ranks on the floor to adventually trade on my own like you. In today’s environment you might be far ahead to work at a clearing house / broker for a couple of years to learn the dynamics and then look to move to a trading position at a prop firm. Another suggestion would be go to a prop firm now and learn from them. Good luck in the future. Trading is a ride, emotion never wins.

     Josh

383. 383 Cifgo Jan 19th, 2009 at 4:47 pm

     Hi there, could anyone who is/was trading there give me please some infos on WTS? Also, why don’t require canadian firms like Title, Swift and WTS a Series 7 exam from their traders? Does the PDT rule not apply to non US firms and non US traders? Much thanks in advance, Cifco.

384. 384 miguel Jan 19th, 2009 at 5:01 pm

     Hello. I have just started with wts. they will be offering a number of different platforms including lights and sterl. the people have been extremely straightforward during the signon process, thoughb getting thew new office up and running took a bit longer, nonetheless wts has potential to be an excellent firm given costs and support. if you like email me at edgetraderhigh@gmail.com and i can answer specific questions or put you in touch with my boss who is recruiting. ps i have nothing to do with hiring, just trading at a new firm and have been impressed so far.

385. 385 Cifgo Jan 19th, 2009 at 6:24 pm

     Hi Miguel, thanks for your comment! Well, I spoke to about 5 WTS traders so far and all have been very impressed by the firm. I will consider to go there. Cifgo

386. 386 mark mendoza Jan 21st, 2009 at 2:04 pm

     i also checked out WTS, what first caught my eye was they’re huge i read on all the forums they have both national and international traders from usa to china, big firm, I called in a few times and demo’d the software

     software is ehhh (not that great)
     support is almost non existent

     FWIW either they just dont have that much experience trading OR they dont support newbies very well –

387. 387 Cifgo Jan 21st, 2009 at 2:26 pm

     What forums do you mean? Thanks!

388. 388 Dean Jan 21st, 2009 at 2:41 pm

     I think a lot of traders are getting confused with World Trade Securities which is based out of Quebec, Canada and WTS Proprietary Trading Group, LLC which is based out of the Financial District in New York City. These are two totally seperate companys although managed by the same owners. I had an interview this week with WTS in New York and the trading floor is top notch along with their technical support and training staff. They all seem straight forward and honest with what they offer. I will be joining them shortly.

389. 389 Cici Jan 21st, 2009 at 3:12 pm

     Hi,Do anybody has experience in trading with Hold Brother?I am with them now.Recently ,they removed my profits up to 8k with reason that there were oversell violations.Does the broker have the right to remove the profits?Is it legal?I think they can break my trades totally if there are violations but not just remove the profits.

     I am using Sterling.What’s oversell?I just do as the software allow me to do.

     It is really sucks.And they act as the King ,will never give you reply on this.And the support will just tell you that it is the company rules.

     I hate them now.They give me the platform,they set up the rules and remove my profit in the end.Do anybody have the same experience ?

     What should I do now?Could anybody help?

     CICI

390. 390 Cifgo Jan 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pm

     You could also ask on elitetrader.com, Cici. I’m sure there are a lot of traders who know this firm.

391. 391 Frank Jan 21st, 2009 at 4:52 pm

     I noted that the website of WTS in New York says they also trade futures. Anyone have experience with them trading futures? I’ve been looking for a prop firm which trades the eMINI without success.
     Also, does WTC allow remote trading?
     Thanks for the info.
     Frank

392. 392 esade Jan 21st, 2009 at 10:15 pm

     anyone heard of 7 Sigma in NYC? they claim 5k with atleast 20 to 1 leverage and 85% of p/l is yours. worth taking a look at?

393. 393 Fernando Jan 22nd, 2009 at 11:43 am

     Nope but the firm i am with offers the same terms with 100% p/l is yours!

     Now the commission might be lower there because any firm that takes money from you (besides commission) has to have lower commissions!

     Mines is not bad…if you can’t make money with 60 cents or 80 cents a 100 shares then you have to go with those firms that take money from you but offer lower commissions! Also depending on how much you trade a day, will make your commission stay the same or go lower.

     Dimension Brokerage
     Star Alliance Capital One

394. 394 Rich Jan 26th, 2009 at 1:56 am

     Do you trade within star alliance or cbd group?

395. 395 Fernando Jan 26th, 2009 at 10:44 am

     Star Alliance, it’s just a prop firm.

396. 396 Rich Jan 27th, 2009 at 7:51 am

     Hi fernando, how is your market maket configured in the blaclwood software. Do you run other sotware with it?

397. 397 Fernando Jan 27th, 2009 at 11:35 am

     Blackwood pro does sux as far as charst goes. I dislike the chart, but the good thing with the firm is that charts are optional. You pay $30 a month for the use of the chart. If you want better charts, you best use esignal or tradestatation. I use esignal, but it cost $100 a month. So i recommend staying on the simple charts till you are able to make more then enough to pay for better charts.

     The only thing i use for blackwood pro is the indices, positions, trader view, and the market maker! Market maker is great and i love it. It’s the only thing that made me stayed with blackwood…or maybe cause i got use to reading the tape with this software!

     As far execution systems goes, its fast…although i have not tried another firm i can’t confirm if is faster then anything, but its good enough for me.

     I’m trading remote a lot, and the execution is still as good as is if your trading from the office! So that’s a plus.

398. 398 halligan Jan 27th, 2009 at 1:50 pm

     Fernando, what is payout percent and commisions. Do they have any rebates, fixed fees.
     How often you can withdraw funds?

399. 399 Cici Jan 27th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

     Thanks Cifgo.Could you recommend a better prop. firm?I am seeking for a firm to join.It will be great if they have LSE so I can stay at home all the day long.

     re:Cifgo
     Jan 21st, 2009 at 3:42 pm

     You could also ask on elitetrader.com, Cici. I’m sure there are a lot of traders who know this firm.

400. 400 fernando Jan 27th, 2009 at 7:24 pm

     This firm for Day trading gives a 20 to 1 leverage (For overnight positions you get a 4-1) charging you 80 cents per 100 shares and you are able to keep all your profits 100% payout. (They charge $2 per contract for options). They just take their commissions and what ever other fees you have to pay to the SEC and stuff like that (so in the end of being 80 cents per share it comes to $1 with all fees).

     If you trade more then 10,000 a day then your commission can go lower to 60 cents, and lower as you trade more. They will also charge you $30 a month if you use their charts and another $30 if you want to be able to see ARCA quotes (Both of this are optional. You don’t have to pay for charts or ARCA quote if you don’t want). Besides that if you want to trade remote you have to pay $75 a month.

     As far as your other questions, the firm distrubute funds every month. Once a month. If you need to take out earlier then that, you can ask them, but i’m not sure cause i never taken out other then every month.

     And yes they have rebates like any other firm, and that’s when you use limit orders through ARCA and others…preatty much anything besides NYSE, but ARCA is the big one.

     So that’s all about it. And again I state, firms that let you keep 100% payout will have higher commissions compare to those that do. So it’s your trading style that will ultimately decide this!

401. 401 Rich Jan 29th, 2009 at 2:38 pm

     Is there a freeze on capital depoits for a year through dimension, or star alliance?

402. 402 Nick Austin Jan 29th, 2009 at 2:57 pm

     You can add Trade Angle to the list of Prop trading groups

403. 403 Fernando Jan 29th, 2009 at 5:08 pm

     Not Star Alliance. I’m not sure about dimension. But i know if you don’t like the partnership with star alliance they will write you a check!

404. 404 Mike G Jan 29th, 2009 at 10:44 pm

     I had an interview with WTS Proprietary Trading Group in New York City. I must say out of all my years trading in nyc this is the first true prop firm I have come across in a long time. Their new trading floor is absolutely gorgeous with electronic swipe card access for traders, ocean front views and gorgeous furniture throughout the place. Soon as I walked in I figured they would be charging an arm and a leg to trade there. I met with management and a few head traders and discussed my trading experience and wanted to see what they would offer me. They all seemed very knowledgeable and honest people to deal with. They have three structures in place for traders and keep it very simple and clean no matter if your experienced or new you get to pick what structure you want.

     structure 1: 90% payout / .0005 (.50 cents per 1000 shares) - capital contribution
     structure 2: 99% payout/ .001 (1.00 per 1000 shares) - capital contribution
     structure 3: 50% in-house training program, no capital required. Must pay $1,500 for training course. When you build your account to $5,000 your payout goes to 75-90%

     I have finished all my paperwork with them today, just waiting for my background check to clear then I am all set, will be trading on their floor by next week. I can’t believe the rates i have been paying for the past five years I want to throw up..

405. 405 Cifgo Jan 30th, 2009 at 9:14 am

     Hi Mike G.,

     is there a way to provide me with an email address of the WTS management in NYC?

     Thanks

406. 406 Mike G Jan 30th, 2009 at 12:03 pm

     Not sure of their email address or contact number off hand but this is their listing on craigslist I applied to and they called me. http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/acc/1013734305.html

407. 407 Babak Jan 30th, 2009 at 4:06 pm

     Cifgo, unless I’m mistaken WTS is world trade securities, which has a website listed above

408. 408 JBTrading Jan 30th, 2009 at 5:16 pm

     I am looking for a prop shop that will let me trade remote with only 5000 in the acct and be cheap on the commission. I have looked at the lightspeed platform and like it. Can anyone give me your top three firms to check into. Then I will go from there.

409. 409 Mike G Jan 30th, 2009 at 6:02 pm

     World Trade Securities and WTS Proprietary Trading Group and completely different companys. WTS doesn’t have their site up yet they are brand new, I was told by sometime next week

410. 410 rich Feb 1st, 2009 at 7:01 pm

     Hi Fernando, I will going back to star alliance. I traded there a few years ago. Software is important. I have two questions for you. Do you run Blackwood on xp or vista? how are you currently setting the marketmaker on blackwood ? what configuration do you set up in the software, to set up the buttons on the bottom market maker buy to open, buyto close, sell short to open, buy to close etc. At the time I was trading there was individual by the name of david out of prestige who was helping set up the software to trade remote. Who do you speak to in suppoort to help confiqure software? Here is my email address richb7a@gmail.com. i would like to speak to you directly thankyou.

411. 411 Cifgo Feb 3rd, 2009 at 4:52 am

     Has anyone experience with Epiphany Trading?

412. 412 Cifgo Feb 3rd, 2009 at 5:25 am

     Could anyone who is with Cygroup please provide some experiences with the firm and details on their models they offer to traders such as monthly fees, comms, payouts? Do they only have Laser as trading platform? Any comment is much appreciated! Thanks in advance! Cifgo.

413. 413 Frank Feb 3rd, 2009 at 1:46 pm

     what does it mean when the companies’ names come up in that orangish-red color like Tower Hill or Geneva Trading?

414. 414 John Feb 3rd, 2009 at 5:28 pm

     Hi Mike - do you have a better contact for this? The email link isn’t working to CL as the posting has been removed. Thanks!

415. 415 Fred Feb 7th, 2009 at 9:17 pm

     I started day trading 4 months ago after the recession took my job. I’ve made some and lost some. I knew nothing of the prop trading industry until today.

     At the Orlando money show I attended a seminar by Oliver Velez of VCM. The program he outlined was intriguing. You contribute $10k, pay .02 per share and he starts you out with $50k. I’ve researched for hours and have read nothing negative about his company by those who maybe traded for him, lost their money and were let go. In fact he claims he has never fired a trader.

     Seems on the up and up, but then I discovered this website and from what I’ve read, his deal, and really the whole prop trading industry is not so desirable. If somebody is out there with any experience dealing with Mr. Velez, I would appreciate if you could give me an idea of what to expect should I enroll in his program.

     Thanks

416. 416 NJC Feb 12th, 2009 at 10:02 pm

     Just got an offer with Seven Sigma Capital, they are at Dimension Brokerage on 5th ave. They want 5K before I start. I’ve read a lot of negative stuff here about the initial investment. Could someone tell me the truth about Dimension? I’m really up in the air about this. Thanks

417. 417 Miguel Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:02 am

     Hey NJC. I dont know much about dimension, though I heard something about a merger with another group. If you are a new trader, I would say that finding a firm that does not require a capital contribution seems like a better idea. Only because any company that will back you financially, will also be much more interested in turning you into a profitable trader, so they will give you more support and training. As a new trader you should expect to lose money for a considerable time, say 3 to 6 months. Your chances of succeeding are far greater if you find a firm that is comfortable with taking some losses while you learn the game, and encouraging you along the way. As a new trader it is very easy to get discouraged during your initial losing (or learning) experience. I know that when I was new, I lost at least 5 grand if not 10 or 15 before turning profitable around the 6 month mark. However in the next 6 months my gains eclipsed my losses. Had I been trading on my own dime, I would probably have given up after losing my initial investment, and missed out on profitability, not to mention a great potential career. On the other hand, as I have now proven to myself that I am a profitable trader, I am much more likely to post a capital contribution as it would allow me to trade by my own rules, as well as getting a better payout/commission structure. Either way, I would suggest that before putting down your 5k, you should really make sure that the office has strong traders, who would add value to your own trading. There is a ton of firms out there, and unfortunately many of them are only interested in reaping off your commissions, and could care less how many traders go bust as long as there’s others’ willing to put down a cap. Also you should keep in mind that EVERY recruiter pushing you to put down a cap contribution, will tell you that they operate a secret immensely profitable proprietary strategy which can only be learned in their second to none training program (which probably charges a fee). Its not easy to find the right firm, but at least if they back you financially, the most you can lose is your time. It would be helpful if we could compile a list of company’s that back traders. I know of a few: Chimera, WTS, and Trillium.

418. 418 B4banko Feb 13th, 2009 at 12:12 am

     Miguel,

     I have yet to see one that does not want your money. What you have stated is news to me. Every time I speak with a firm they drop the interest when I make it clear my capitol is not going in their account. If they want to put up the capitol I have no problem splitting my earnings. I do it now with my own personal clients that open 10-1 leveraged accounts.

419. 419 Fernando Feb 13th, 2009 at 4:43 pm

     NJC I’m with Star Alliance Capital. Dimension Brokerage is just 1 floor down from where we trade! And there is nothing wrong with them!

     As Star Alliance require you to put 5k so does dimension. But like someone said earlier, that if you are new, then there are other firms that will give a lot of support to new traders! These prop firms that require you to put money down, are for traders who have experience, or who don’t want to work for nobody else, and just want to manage their own money!

     So if you fall on the latter one, then you can try dimension!

     But my recommendation, is to only put down a small amount of money that will not hurt you financially! Because there are no schools out there to teach you how to trade, so you will learn from these props firms and yourself!

     After you have been trading for one year, then you can evaluate yourself, and see if you like this profession or not!

     You can try them, but i think their commission is a bit high for day trading! This firm offers 50 cent per 100 shares and 100% payout: http://www.cygrouponline.com/
     The only problem with cygroup is that the leverage for overnight positions is not as great as Star Alliance!

     So if you want day trading Cygroup is a very solid one. If you want Swing trading try Star Alliance, or other firms that give you good leverages!

     Anything else hit me up!
     stalyn.murillo@gmail.com

420. 420 New Trader Feb 16th, 2009 at 4:22 pm

     Hi,

     I was offered to work for RBC Professional Trading Group.

     Does anyone know anything about them? It is the office on 11 Broadway.

     I know I start trading with 25 K until I make 25 K to put on my own account, but do they increase my account size later on?

     Is the training program good?

     Thank you

421. 421 paul Feb 20th, 2009 at 1:02 am

     is anyone here a member of marketfriends.com? i’ve heard it’s a good free network for traders to chat and share info, etc

422. 422 Cyrus Feb 20th, 2009 at 10:52 pm

     hey Babak

     Brilliant list mate, well done.
     Im in UK and without trying to sound stupid here, do any of these prop trading firms work in forex market ?
     I have been trading FX for the past couple of years and just graduated from uni. Really like to get a graduate job in any of these prop firms to start off the career!

     cheers mate
     Cyrus

423. 423 John Feb 23rd, 2009 at 7:58 pm

     This thread is awesome. I have been looking for information about prop trading firms and this kind of information is pretty useful to bear in mind. Well, at first, I was interested in trading futures and forex but I would consider to trade other financial products instead.

     On one hand, after reading these posts I got to be a bit disappointed because of this lack of success in many of the people who try working at this kind of firms unsuccessfully. For that reason, from now on I am doubting whether investing any money as I thought firstly. I mean, unless you tell me that I am wrong, there might be some of these companies which do not require me to invest any money. Nonetheless, I am still interested in it just in case there was any chance to be successful myself.

     On the other hand, since I think that I have the qualifications (Master finance) needed to enter into a training program as trader into a bank, I would like to know from someone who knows what difference would exist between the job of trader in a bank and the job of trader in a prop trading firm. I gotta say that I love speculative trading and it seems to me that that is not neccessary what I would be doing all the time as a trader in a bank.

     Moreover, what really really really….really propels me is the idea that the money I can earn is completely variable and it all depend on my performance and only my performance if working in a prop trading firm.
     To end with, I would be pleased if any of you could tell me some prop trading firm with offices in Spain. I would not mind to move, but after having read all what I read in this thread I am not sure if moving would make any sense before checking that this business fits with me.

     I almost forgot. Since I have seen some offer for junior traders in the Swiftrade’s offices in Barcelona, Spain in thich they do not even require having studied something related to Mathematics but at the same time I have seen that most trading positions I have seen in banks require candidates with quantitative profiles, I would like to know up to what point the trading style which is carried out in this prop firms needs quantitative minds. I thought it had more to do with technical analysis, studying curves, tendencies and stuff like that instead of so much Mathematics.

     So, any suggestion about all this things would be really appreciated.

424. 424 Varun Feb 28th, 2009 at 2:15 pm

     Hi, I am currently an MS Finance student from IIT Chicago looking for trading internships. Can anyone tell me where all to apply in India?

     Thanks

425. 425 Jorge John Feb 28th, 2009 at 2:33 pm

     Hello Varun
     nice to meet u. Actually I was accepted into that program in IIT Chicago for 2008/09 but I eventually went to another school. I am looking as well for an internship in a speculative trading positions involving technical analysis mostly.
     Regards
     Jorge

426. 426 Kurtosis Mar 1st, 2009 at 1:05 am

     John, Technical Analysis and Quantitative Analysis are not the same thing. The former can be taught to most anyone, uses charts and basic statistics to identify high-probability trades, but still boils down to human pattern matching ability, intuition, and luck. The prop shops discussed on this thread hire people willing to trade their own money and take a cut of the profits, or let them go if they blow up.

     The latter requires the study of math at least up to stochastic calculus and involves creation and use of mathematically sophisticated models for trading and money management. Banks hire quants to manage millions or billions of clients’ and the bank’s own money, hence the education requirement. If you want to learn more about the latter, I suggest perusing wilmott.com, one of the top quant portals.

427. 427 Jorge John Mar 1st, 2009 at 7:51 am

     hello Kurtosis

     Ok. Thanks for your answer. Anyways, I know quantitative analysis because that has been taught to me in the master in finance I am currently studying and I know something of technical analysis because I have studied it on my own. Nonetheless, what I would really like to end up doing is speculative trading applying technical analysis and only technical analysis if that trading style works consistently without quantitative stuff. What I want to ask you is related to what steps you suggest me to follow to end up happily working in what I just told you. So,

     first question: What kind of companies might do speculative trading? I know that propriety trading firms do it. But, I am not that sure what other kind of companies do it. For example: as far as one of my teachers told me (he works for one of the biggest traditional banks from my country) I know that the biggest traditional banks in my country have trading departments which have the following structure:

     trading department: they used the models created by the quantitative department.

     quantitative department: they create the models used by the traders.

     sales department: they receive the requests from the clients and tell the traders to carry them out.

     Positions in the quantitative department require people who is good at Mathematics.

     For, positions in the trading department, as far as this teacher told me, traders need to understand how to interpret the models built by the quantitative department. Moreover, it would be useful if traders knew how this models are built.

     I know that these banks trading departments manage money from their clients and also the banks’ own money. But my question is: Do the traders at these trading departments work speculatively? Is the experience achieved in this trading departments at banks useful if I what I really want is to end up trading in a propriety trading firm for a retribution based on personal gains?

     Bearing in mind that what I would really like to end up doing is:
     applying only technical analysis in a speculative style of trading for
     futures, forex and may be even stock(ETF) but not options because they have
     pretty much quantitative stuff

     I would like to do this with a systematic approach to achieve consistent gains and get a retribution based on personally produced gains. So, I would like to know your opinion about what steps you suggest me to follow: the thing is that I guess the best way to learn what I want to end up doing would be attending a training program from an internship in a propriety trading firm but there are not that many propriety trading firms like that in my country. I have already tried with two of these trading firms. The first one, called digitrade told me they needed only people with experience and the other one, swifttrader, has not replied me yet.

     The thing is that as far as I have read, you might need to have some financial support while you are learning the stuff at one of these propriety trading firms since retribution is based on personal gains. Since I might afford that only if I am in Spain because my expenses are low compared to if I moved abroad, then I doubt whether I could afford moving abroad(for example Chicago, in the US) for a internship of this kind. If I moved, I guess I would need a fixed income. If there was some company for example in Chicago(USA) or wherever abroad which offered internships for training in a speculative trading with technical analysis and only technical analysis and at the same time offered a fixed retribution to survive, I think that would be the company which is tailored to my needs, at least to get some experience in the beginning. Because as most of you when I had some experience on getting consistent profits, I would like to end up working for a retribution based only on personal gains.

     Another question I have: I have seen that there are many propriety trading firms from the list of this thread that are requiring people with quantitative profiles. But, is there anyone from this list which might have internships in which they teach you a system based on a speculative style of trading based on applying technical analysis and only technical analysis with no quantitative stuff whatsoever? If so, could you tell me any of them? I ask you this because this trading industry seems to be quite diverse but what I would like to do is very specific and I do not even know if there are that many propriety trading firms which might follow this approach I just described in this last paragraph. Since I do not want to end up doing something which is not what I really like, I would really appreciate any help in these issues.
     Sorry for the huge extension of this post. It is just that I have not met that many good places to ask this kind of information, and I have not acquaintances in this industry of trading. Therefore, this thread has been really good and useful to find people who share my interests.

     Look forward for your answers.
     Thanks a lot in advance.

     Regards,
     Jorge

428. 428 Kurtosis Mar 1st, 2009 at 6:20 pm

     Jorge, apologies didn’t mean to sound condescending, you obviously know the domain. I posted a similar question to this on Wilmott.com forums almost a year ago, and got some good feedback, maybe it will help you too:

     http://wilmott.com/messageview.cfm?catid=16&threadid=61541&FTVAR_MSGDBTABLE=

     The best advice starts with ChigagoGuy’s response. I also suggest asking your question on their Trading forum as well.

     Some banks have their prop shops where they do more speculative, global-macro-type trading, but that may be more among investment banks (what’s left of them) than commercial banks.

     If you want to stay in Spain, I’d suggest researching all the banks headquartered there, or with major offices there, find out which if any have such prop trading desks, then figure out how to get employed on them. It may not be a direct route, you may get a diff job at that bank, then find a way to transfer internally.

     My next choice would probably be to look at Chicago, even if it’s a financial stretch for you, as ChicagoGuy’s response above indicates that there are lots of trading firms there that are more than boiler-room prop shops, but less than banks or investment banks. I don’t know that scene well though, this is just my sense from reading books and forums about it.

     If I can think of anything else, will post.

429. 429 Scott Mar 1st, 2009 at 6:20 pm

     Hi, does anyone know of any prop firms with desks in Charlotte. I currently trade with a firm but need to relocate to NC if possible. Im looking through the list to see if I can find any but havent found any yet. If anyone knows of any your help would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

430. 430 Jorge John Mar 1st, 2009 at 7:07 pm

     Hello guys

     Hi Kurtosis, this is funny, because I also have a background in IT and I am currently doing this Masters in finance to make the move into trading. Well, it feels great to have the opportunity to meet people like you mates with common interests, this is awesome!
     I think this search of internships is gonna take me sometime since there are quite a lot sites to visit from the long list of prop trading firms from this thread. I still have to do a through research among them.

     But, for the time being, as I told you the only thing I might be worried about is that: when recruiters see my background, they might say, hey man! this guy is useful in a quantitative trading position because what I want is not quantitative stuff but just trading with technical analysis in case that is possible.

     An another thing that is still in my mind is that some firms from the list of trading firms in this thread offered junior positions but I think most of these positions I saw were related to quantitative stuff. So, I would really appreciate that you told me if you get to know any firm in the US or wherever which have junior trading positions not involving quantitative stuff. If I find this kind of position before any of you guys tell me, then I can post it here as well to let you know. At least, I think from all of you guys, Kurtosis might be interested in that kind of positions unless you already have experience.

     Thanks in advance for all your comments which I appreciate a lot.
     Keep in touch
     Jorge

431. 431 Jorge John Mar 1st, 2009 at 7:58 pm

     Well, an example of the kind of a trading position which involves quantitative stuff is the ones from

     www.janestreet.com
     As you will be able to see at their site the skill set they require for their trading positions is:

     “Trading
     Trading candidates should be:
     Excellent quantitatively, with a strong understanding of probability and statistics
     Effective communicators in a close-knit team setting
     Motivated, competitive and eager to learn and teach
     Able to solve new problems quickly in the hectic environment of a busy desk or exchange floor
     Excited to engage in impromptu and exploratory debate on trading strategy and risk
     Previous experience or course work in finance, business, or economics is NOT required. We’re more interested in how you think and learn than what you know.
     ”

     But what I am looking for is a trading position based on technical analysis and not that much in quantitative stuff. Well, may be I am looking for a position that does not exist but for the time being I will keep looking for it. And like I said in the previous post, if you get to know what I am looking for, please let me know.
     Thanks
     Keep in touch

432. 432 Kurtosis Mar 1st, 2009 at 10:23 pm

     Hi Jorge, Jane Street is one of the quant shop heavy-weights, I seriously doubt they do any technical analysis there. You can google ‘jane street interview’ or ‘jane street recruiting’ for threads on their recruiting process and business. Here’s one:

     http://www.wallstreetoasis.com/forums/jane-street-capital

     More quant, algo-trading, and game-theory stuff. WallStreetOasis.com is probably another good place to research. Two more I just remembered are:

     http://elitetrader.com/
     http://tickerforum.org/

     tickerforum is all about technical analysis trading, and the guy running it does nightly videos that recap the day’s technical signals. Might be some on there who can point you to the kind of trading firm you’re looking for.

433. 433 RK Mar 2nd, 2009 at 5:21 am

     hey guys
     how do i find a list of prop trading firms in Hong Kong? Especially the new start up ones?

     Pls feel free to email me at rkwan4@bloomberg.net

     Much appreciated
     RK

434. 434 nolatency Mar 2nd, 2009 at 10:00 am

     Could anyone update this great list? Or we can all contribute to it like WiKIPedia version? I found some link are dead. A few of shop in the list are pure day trader shark shop, a few of shops are missing.

435. 435 Fernando Mar 2nd, 2009 at 10:49 am

     That’s it. It’s over for me, and market is going to 4000! I don’t care what kind of money the government throws in, Market is going to 4000!
     And I’m going to short my a** of!

     So in the end, the same route that Germany took after WWI that lead to the collapse of their currency, is being pursued by the US. So don’t be fooled by all these printing money of the government,because is going to lead to stagflation!

     “Both types of explanations are offered in analyses of the global stagflation of the 1970s: it began with a huge rise in oil prices, but then continued as central banks used excessively stimulative monetary policy to counteract the resulting recession, causing a runaway wage-price spiral.”

     “John Maynard Keynes wrote in The Economic Consequences of the Peace that governments printing money and using price controls were causing a combination of inflation and economic stagnation in Europe after World War I. Stagflation was, as stated above, also a very serious macroeconomic problem in the 1970s.”

436. 436 Plamen Mar 6th, 2009 at 7:25 pm

     I just want to ask you…I am new in the business and want to trade online from home.Do you know a company that will provide training for remote trading and will not charge me
     Thanks in advance

437. 437 Jorge John Mar 7th, 2009 at 3:43 am

     That’s a very good question!
     That would be great!

438. 438 Jorge John Mar 10th, 2009 at 8:07 pm

     Hello
     according to your experience, is it useful to have passed the CFA (chartered financial analyst) to get a position in directional day trading in a propriety trading firm?
     Thanks in advance

439. 439 Babak Mar 10th, 2009 at 10:53 pm

     Plamen, there are varying degrees of training from different prop firms so it really depends. This is what makes it difficult to find a ‘fit’ - you have to research a few to be able to choose the right one.

     Jorge, no the CFA program isn’t really helpful. You can certainly be a successful trader having the CFA designation but it doesn’t really offer anything specific re trading (other than a very cursory treatment of technical analysis).

440. 440 Jorge John Mar 11th, 2009 at 4:18 am

     That’s what I thought. It is just that some of my professors at school told me that for example having passed the first CFA level (it has 3 levels) might help when competing for a trading position, above all in London.

     I told them then that this exam is designed for financial analysts and they replied that it is interesting as well for traders. Anyways, the truth is that although this professors might have get to know some traders in their life, as far as I know, none of them have specialized as day traders themselves but financial analysts.

     Another question: is it the same thing working as a day trader in a proprietary trading firm like the one listed above and working as a trader in a hedge fund? I mean, Do hedge funds have directional day trading positions for their proprietary trading desks? If they do, do they give the same kind of remuneration as proprietary trading firms? I mean, Do they give monthly retribution based on profits achieved by the trader like typical trading firms do? Or on the contrary, they just give the trader a bonus at the end of the year depending on the benefits the trader achieved.

     Last question: How relevant is the experience as a trader in a hedge fund for doing directional trading on futures in a proprietary trading firm specialized in day trading futures like for example http://www.digitradesl.com/? I mean, at this trading firm they say:
     “At Digitrade we look for a specific profile of trader that differs from a typical bank trader profile. We ask for at least 2 years futures trading experience in a Trading Arcade. We strongly believe in consistency and discipline in our daily trading activity.
     ” Do you think this kind of experience might be got not only in a proprietary trading firm but in a hedge fund?

     I am asking this because some of my professors implied that hedge funds are a good place to find day trading positions. But I am not sure up to what point this professors know the proprietary trading industry which as far as I know is not really developed in Spain. So I would like to ask your opinion.

     Thanks a lot in advance

441. 441 Reese Mar 11th, 2009 at 9:17 am

     Hey ive been reading , i do have one question ?
     whats the difference between , a hedge fund , and a prop firm (arcade)

442. 442 Alexander Mar 11th, 2009 at 5:45 pm

     what you guys think of Dimension Capital Partners? They want traders to bring 10k$ to start trading with them… scammers?

443. 443 Chi Trading Guy Mar 18th, 2009 at 10:14 am

     Reese:

     There are a lot of problems with jargon in teh trading business.. here goes

     Hedge Fund - A pool of money - that is managed by a strategy other then long only stocks, that would be a Mutual Fund. Stocks, options, futures, swaps, general derivitive …are the types of instruments used to manage the $$. A Hedge Fund normally follows one strategy and hires traders to follow the Managers Strategy.

     A Prop for Propprietary Firm - Hires traders to trade (it varies) some of theior $$ - and some house $$ - the traders has a preset trading exposure and receives a % of the profits - and normally cousl only use the normally small amount they have to post (if anything). Depending on the degree of trading success, ytrading exposure levels and % of profits to the trader will change.

     Arcade - This is a location that houses Traders who tradwer their own $$. The Arcade offers beneifts such as lower costs of trading (basis volume) tech support and high speed connectivity to its traders.

     I hope that helps.

444. 444 Chris Chee Mar 20th, 2009 at 5:14 pm

     HELP!!

     Anyone, can you recommend which prop firm that I should get into to learn trading in NY? I am going to finish my undergrad studies this coming May, and I am confuse on where to start out as a trader.

445. 445 Plamen Mar 23rd, 2009 at 11:47 am

     Guys be more specifiv with the names on that, count 3-4 cmpanies:

     “I just want to ask you…I am new in the business and want to trade online from home.Do you know a company that will provide training for remote trading and will not charge me
     Thanks in advance”

446. 446 Chris Mar 26th, 2009 at 9:07 am

     Hi there!

     Would please like to know which propietary trading firms have offices in Barcelona (Spain), and/or which allow Remote Trading.

     Thanks a lot there!

447. 447 Jorge John Mar 26th, 2009 at 9:13 am

     In Barcelona you have swiftrade.

448. 448 Mark Apr 4th, 2009 at 8:19 pm

     Has anyone had any experience with Equity Trading Capital in NYC? Just curious. Any info would be appreciated. Thanks.

449. 449 Dan Apr 7th, 2009 at 3:57 pm

     Does anyone know about WTS proprietary trading group? Do they trade commodity futures?

450. 450 Shawn Apr 9th, 2009 at 2:48 am

     I’m considering trading for a prop firm, but I was thinking about it, and I don’t see how it makes sense. If someone can clear it up for me, I’d really appreciate it.

     So what I don’t get is that most prop firms have you deposit money. Say a firm wants you to deposit $5k in order to trade $100k of their capital. That’s 20:1 leverage. You could take that same $5k to a forex broker and get 400:1 leverage. With either the forex broker or the prop firm, you can’t trade after you lose that initial $5k deposit.

     So the only advantage to prop that I can see is that you get training and support.

     Am I missing something?

451. 451 Jorge John Apr 9th, 2009 at 4:01 am

     Hello Shawn
     I was wondering the same question as you. I have not been to a prop yet but what I can imagine is that they might offer tools like Reuters or Bloomberg or any other expensive tool which might be a bit difficult to afford on your own. If someone knows first hand the answer to this question, you can answer it.

452. 452 Mike Apr 11th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

     anyone know about darkpooltraders.com just received an email from them stating they just launched today. Seems pretty interesting, any feedback appreciated

453. 453 Matt Apr 13th, 2009 at 6:15 am

     That’s right Shawn, there is no difference, except you will probably get faster execution (assuming they use a platform such as TT) and lower brokerage (but still, most will take a cut of the brokerage to offset any potential trading losses). Others will charge a ‘desk fee’ which covers the use of software and hardware and probably also has a built in profit for the firm.

     In any case, the only advantage prop will give you, is faster execution and lower brokerage.

454. 454 Otis Apr 15th, 2009 at 11:26 pm

     Great Blog. Prop firms just seem like a bunch of fees, fees, and more fees. My rec to someone coming out of college looking for a trading career is to not bank on becoming a prop trader. So many young graduates are enthralled about the idea of attaining the title as being a “trader.” Dont buy into it. Nothings for free and fees are a very sneaky and deceptive way of making seemingly little costs add up to a whole lot. Dont want to talk too much smack about prop firms, but I am just very weary of them (never traded with one but thought about going for an interview after being turned off by the recruiters evasiveness about the firms policies and capital contribution requirements. Look to be traders who are MARKET MAKERS, not “Proprietary.” Market making is where its at, taking orders from hedgefunds, matching buyers and sellers and YOU earn commission. These prop firms, with their splits, desk charges, commissions, fees, etc etc. on and on and on with nonstop fees. Lets face it, these prop jobs are not hard to get AT ALL, if you show one ounce of eagerness to throw down money for a prop firm you’ll be hired in a second. Also, working for some sketchy-ass firm named “chronic trading” certainly will not look fabulous on a resume either. Job security? NONE. God do u know how much pressure you would be under EVERY SINGLE DAY with NO salary and banking solely on commission to pay for rent and dinner?? That is way too much for a recent grad to handle and one not need to suffer such job-INSECURITY. You are merely paying prop firms to use their leverage. It’s a deal, not a job. Take the job at Citi as an operations analyst or a trading assistant ANYDAY over some BS prop trading position. Would look SO MUCH better on a resume as well. Just my 2 cents.

     Otis

455. 455 Matt Apr 16th, 2009 at 5:27 am

     Otis, you say you have never traded at a Prop firm, then you go on a diatribe about them? LOL.

     Basically, you can make money trading, you can achieve faster execution, and lower brokerage with Prop, than you would on your own.

     Personally, I would not cough up my own cash to join a prop firm (that defeats the purpose). You should trade their capital, and in return, they take a split. They also take a split of brokerage and a ‘desk free’ to cover their fixed costs and those who do not make it.

     That’s basically how it works.

     If you want lower brokerage and higher % splits, go to where the competition lies, such as Europe, whereby you can achieve both.

     If you want leverage, trade futures, far cheaper than equities.

456. 456 juliam Apr 19th, 2009 at 6:16 pm

     Looking for a company that pays or give trader starting captain if profit is made it is split 50/50

457. 457 Gene Apr 21st, 2009 at 1:00 am

     Hey,

     I’m going to be graduating this May from the University of Michigan and was interested in learning more about prop trading. From what I’ve researched so far, companies will leverage your whatever capital you put in. However, what I do not understand about these companies is how they are able to manage risk and make a profit.

     For instance, if I were to put $10,000 of my own capital and say they leverage me 20:1, I would have approximately 200k to trade with. What happens when I lose 50k within the first month on trading? Do I have to pay this back to does the company take the hit? Or on a more positive note, say I make a profit of $100,000 my first year of trading. How will these profits get divided up? Is it realistic to say I would be able to keep 75k out of the 100k after fees and commissions?

     Any input/advice would be helpful.

     Thanks

458. 458 Kurtosis Apr 21st, 2009 at 1:35 am

     Here’s another prop firm I just came across, doesn’t appear to be on the list:

     http://www.integrafxtrading.com/

459. 459 chi town Apr 29th, 2009 at 10:33 am

     good posts for recent grads. But u guys must understand one thing that is very important. ALL THESE PROP SHOPS ARE ONE THING: BROKERAGE. ok let me simplfy you trader x comes in with 5k or whatever. They charge you $10 per thousand shares they in turn pay $1 per thousand shares. All these shops make money off your trading and are really nothing more than a broker dealer. THey are no different than a charles schwab or TD but they give you leverage. IT is not a job or a career but a business that u develop as a trader. That being said some traders do make money. It is very hard and a tough biz. U can make it but it will be challenging. Just dont go into these prop shops thinking its a job…it is not. U are on your own and are an entenpenuer plain and simple. If u need a job and a salary this is not for you.

460. 460 Mike Apr 30th, 2009 at 7:41 am

     Has anyone heard anything about Investor Capital Corp in NYC?

461. 461 Babak May 1st, 2009 at 9:47 pm

     Mike, ICC is a regular broker/dealer.

462. 462 Jibs May 2nd, 2009 at 12:52 pm

     Hey guys, I was wondering if any of you knew of any prop firms in Dubai?

463. 463 Babak May 4th, 2009 at 10:13 am

     Jibs, Dubai scares me. I wouldn’t set foot there even for a vacation. Beneath the thin veneer of pomp it is like going back to 4th century dark ages.

464. 464 Jibs May 7th, 2009 at 11:19 am

     Babak, thanks for your concern. I visited Dubai not to long ago for four months and actually enjoyed it. I know they have a trader arcade there but I did know if they had any prop firms. I was just wondering because I thought since they guarantee no taxes for 50 years their might be some prop firms there.

465. 465 Ronak May 17th, 2009 at 7:29 pm

     Hello Babak

     First of all thanks for all the work you have done over here
     Secondly is there a possible way i can find out about mostly all
     the prop trading firms in Canada

466. 466 SEAN May 17th, 2009 at 10:51 pm

     URGENT - please help!!

     Does anyone know prop firms with market access in India, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Korea, and U.S

     Thx

467. 467 Babak May 18th, 2009 at 2:46 pm

     Sean, although there may be others, check with swiftrade first - I’m pretty sure they have an office in India.

     Ronak, do you mean as a remote trader? or on location? swiftrade is probably the best known prop firm in Canada. There’s also Golden Market based out of Montreal.

     Jibs, Dubai is great as long as everything is peachy. But do one single thing wrong and you’ll find out how closed a society it is.

468. 468 Ronak May 18th, 2009 at 8:08 pm

     Hello Babak

     Thanks for the reply well i was looking for on location or remote either one
     but i prefer on location which can offer a base salary also. i have tried my
     hand on swift trade but not worth it as its mostly controlled by big boys and
     dont get a chance to advance at the next level

469. 469 Rew Jun 10th, 2009 at 7:17 am

     Another possible for the list:

     Liquid Capital Markets

     It is part (the main part) of the Liquid Capital Group which has offices on London (HQ), Sydney, Chengdu and Chicago. Not sure if they have trading floors in Chengdu and Chicago but they have substantial operations in both London and Sydney.

     It’s very focused on volume leadership in the products it trades. It’s predominantly a market maker trading with it’s own capital. I believe there is a prop trading dimension also but someone who works there might know more.

     The Liquid Capital Group also has a broking division called Liquid Capital Securities.

470. 470 Babak Jun 10th, 2009 at 2:49 pm

     Rew, from what I can see Liquid is a market maker/specialist. I don’t see anywhere that they are a prop firm. If I’m mistaken, please let me know with a specific link or info.

471. 471 Robinson Jun 14th, 2009 at 1:04 am

     Hey, does anyone know of any good Proprietary Trading Firms “prop shops” here in Boston, Ma. I’m pretty much new to this and would appreciate any pointers or things to look out for.

472. 472 Rador Jun 20th, 2009 at 12:16 am

     Hi,
     I’m in NY and I’m looking for a company that offers free remote trading. Low commissions and fees. I know of a company that is 60 cents per 100 shares, $60.00/month software fees, free remote, and 98% payout. Does anyone know any firm that is better?

     I would prefer companies located in NY.

473. 473 Pete N Jul 2nd, 2009 at 11:49 am

     first of all, fantastic blog Babak…big props (sorry had to get the pun in)

     I have been for an assessment meeting with a prop firm in London this week, they are offering to pay a subsistence allowance to pay for food/travel for the first few months training (US$ 550) the for the next 3 months while i move onto simulation training it increases to US$800. When I go to live trading in 6 months they provide 100% of the capital to trade (with no financial risk to myself). The one draw back is that they want you to committ to them on a 4yr contract.

     Can you guys shed any light..or give any advice on this entry level position.

474. 474 Babak Jul 2nd, 2009 at 1:03 pm

     Pete, sounds better than what 99% out there are offered but it is hard to tell without knowing all the details, and I’m sure there are more. You can certainly take advantage of it to get a foot in the door and then keep an eye out for better offers when you’ve got more experience.

475. 475 Robinson Jul 2nd, 2009 at 3:03 pm

     Hey Rador i wanted to know what company were you talking about that offers that deal, i think it would be worth calling.

476. 476 Rador Jul 3rd, 2009 at 12:08 pm

     The name of the company is CY Group.
     In my last post, I failed to mention that to close the account, the company would charge you $200.

     If anyone has any info/experience with CY Group please let us know.

477. 477 D Jul 4th, 2009 at 12:05 am

     Pete, that sounds really sketchy. Why do they want you on a 4 year contract? What qualifications do you have that makes you an asset to them? Is it a large company? I would be extremely careful.

478. 478 Robinson Jul 6th, 2009 at 5:41 pm

     Does anybody know of any proprietary trading firms in Boston or remote trading places that are free to join?

479. 479 Fernando Jul 13th, 2009 at 12:29 pm

     CY Offers free Remote Trading!

     But I must say their Swing Trading Policy is not good!

     The only descent one i know for Swing Trading is still Star Alliance!

     4 to 1 leverage for overnight positions. 80 cents per 100 shares, and 100% payout ratio!

     Overall: CYgroup best for Day Trading
     and Star Alliance best for Swing Trading!

     If you can find a better deal then these two, then please, share the knowledge!

480. 480 Alejandro Arbelaez Jul 13th, 2009 at 12:30 pm

     gentlemen i need to take one of the learning programs of some of the firms of the list, in their concept which can be the best. I thanks a lot your collaboration.

     Alejandro Arbelaez

481. 481 Stephen Jul 14th, 2009 at 9:51 am

     Does anyone know the name of a prop firm in Vancouver, BC? If memory serves correct, it is run by two brothers from Kelowna, BC and is affiliated with a US firm.
     Thanks

482. 482 Sharck Jul 14th, 2009 at 3:15 pm

     I moved to Toronto recently and was interested in a list of any prop-trading shops in the area outside of Swift. Would like to focus on institutional trading.
     PS If anyone is interested in learning about trading or joining my cyber trading room, please visit my site at www.SharckSoup.com
     A trading blog for the past year is accessable on Facebook with the same name.

483. 483